Brexit vote > Trump > Le Pen (?) : worth it ?

[Penistone999]

Ah, yes. Those poor misunderstood fascists. Yes, let's have a fascist in charge of a major European nation - what could possibly go wrong?

 

I consider myself liberal - please explain why my loathing of fascism and fascists is hypocritical - frankly, I don't see it.

 

I think you have answered your own question there old chap.

 

You consider yourself a liberal , yet loath certain people.

[petemcewan]

Justin Smith,

 

If the far right in this country or in Europe, thinks it's going to get its own way then they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

[Anna B]

I`m slightly shocked... I`ve just been listening to Radio 4`s "Correspondents Look Ahead To 2017", and one of them made a long shot prediction that Marine Le Pen, a fascist let`s remember, may get in as French President. He thought this could happen on the back of the Brexit vote and the Trump election (many people think the former was crucial to the latter). I have to say I have my doubts that the French NF will get in, the French voting system is very effective at preventing splits causing unexpected upsets and letting extremists in, but the fact a BBC correspondent was even putting it forward as a possibility is very worrying.

 

My question to all those who voted Leave in the Referendum, is this : if Le Pen does get in, along with Trump, was it all worth it ? And if it was worth it, how far would it have to go not to be worth it ? A far right Dutch leader ? A Facist in Germany ? Trade wars ? Actual wars ?

 

I think a more pertinent question is why you think this is happening? What is making people vote like this? Trust me, they aren't all stupid so there must be a reason. You would do well to start by asking yourself what that reason could be.

[Phanerothyme]

I think a more pertinent question is why you think this is happening? What is making people vote like this? Trust me, they aren't all stupid so there must be a reason. You would do well to start by asking yourself what that reason could be.

 

It can't possibly be a single reason. People aren't intelligent automatons.

 

Accept the fact that in times of even relative 'austerity' and hardship, populations gravitate towards simple solutions to extremely complex and contested problems, and tend towards isolationism.

 

A government intent on retaining power will always gravitate to the lowest common denominators of political discourse, hanging campaigns of fear, uncertainty and doubt on convenient political scapegoats. If there aren't any handy, they can simply make some.

 

It's worked since before Jesus, and it works now.

 

It's how authoritarianism builds. If it's what the people want, it is, to some degree, what they get with the British Parliamentary System. I don't want it, but clearly I'm in a minority and I don't get a vote anyhow.

 

Thankfully, the safety mechanisms still exist, for the time being.

[*_ash_*]

I`m not being silly at all. I`m stating an accepted fact about the Leave vote encouraging Trump, and probably getting him elected. I`m then extrapolating and asking a reasonable hypothetical question.

 

You are in this case.

 

Whether you can or can't see how silly your question was in the OP is a different matter though.

 

My question to all those who voted Leave in the Referendum, is this : if Le Pen does get in, along with Trump, was it all worth it ? And if it was worth it, how far would it have to go not to be worth it ? A far right Dutch leader ? A Facist in Germany ? Trade wars ? Actual wars ?

 

--

 

I`m not being silly at all. I`m stating an accepted fact about the Leave vote encouraging Trump, and probably getting him elected. I`m then extrapolating and asking a reasonable hypothetical question.

 

It wasn't a hypothetical question at all. At best it was the type of things I hear dopey students saying, or Socialist Worker sellers.

 

Even simple basic logic wise, you broke almost every rule. It's certainly the worst nonsense that you've written that I can recall.

 

The only reason this thread hasn't 'gone viral' is because even the thick remainers are probably embarrassed.

 

Hence why I suggested being on the sauce, not HP or Hendos

[Harrystottle]

I do not think Le Pen will win. Sarkozy got lots of her votes last time by being the "nice" right wing alternative, and Fillon will repeat the trick this time.

 

Unless there are a couple more terrorist atrocities in France, because that would help Le Pen.

[blake]

I do not think Le Pen will win. Sarkozy got lots of her votes last time by being the "nice" right wing alternative, and Fillon will repeat the trick this time.

 

Unless there are a couple more terrorist atrocities in France, because that would help Le Pen.

 

Sarkhozy wasn't running against an FN candidate like Fillom will be. Sarkhozy was running against a Socialist so he didn't have to be all that 'nice' a right-winger at all. All Sarkhozy had to be was just a normal conservative and not like Royal, who appeared to be too left wing to the voters.

 

what the FN and Le Pen need to do to have a chance of winning the election is to tack to the left, not go to the right. That's what all the nationalist populist parties do. They have to tack left, not right, to get past the 30% or so of the vote which is the ceiling they hit when they just have a narrow right, populist message. They have to go left, not right. It's working class people who in the past have normally voted for left of centre parties like Labour in Britain and the Socialists in France that the FN need to win over, not conservatives. It's what UKIP do. And it's what Trump did. In amongst all the populist anti-immigration rhetoric of Trump's campaign was a considerable amount of left-wing rhetoric too, and that's what helped to bring so much of America's white working class vote into Trump's camp and enabled Trump to win. You can rely on Le Pen and and the FN trying to do the same. I don't think the FN will win either, but even if Le Pen gets over 40% in the final run off, although that is a sound defeat, it will still be about 12 million more votes than her dad got against Chirac.

[woahthere]

There are none so blind as those that will not see. Most liberals find it incredibly difficult their own faults.

 

As a liberal you are supposed to respect the beliefs of other people, not just the beliefs of those you agree with. People like you are worse than the people from the EDL who hate Muslims. At least they don't pretend not to be full of hate.

 

If you loathe people for their beliefs, you are a biggot, not a liberal.

 

Wow are you really saying that we should be tolerant of fascists?

 

---------- Post added 01-01-2017 at 15:14 ----------

 

I think you have answered your own question there old chap.

 

You consider yourself a liberal , yet loath certain people.

 

And another. That's two people on this thread saying we should cut fascists some slack.

 

Stay classy Sheffield forum.

[Mister M]

I think you have answered your own question there old chap.

 

You consider yourself a liberal , yet loath certain people.

 

I wasn't aware that being a liberal stopped people from having negative feelings towards others?...The right wing haven't got a monopoly on loathing.

[blake]

what's happened is that the French National Front, have wasted the socialist French version of the British Labour party and they've sent them to the cleaners. They did it before, in 2002, when Le Pen's dad opposed Chirac and lost massively.

 

they are not going to make the same mistake this time.

 

now in order to get into the palace, they have to oppose the conservatives by poaching all those Socialist/Labour votes that are going begging, and which the French conservatives will never get.

 

turnout, which is usually incredibly high in French elections, will be crucial. How many of those disaffected former French Socialist voters will sit on the fence and not vote at all. How many will bite their lips and end up voting for the French Tories/Conservatives like they did when many habitual Socialist voters voted for Chirac last time the FN was on the final ticket back in 2002 just to keep Le Pen out. But how many of those former French Socialist voters, will vote for the French National Front instead of the French Conservatives, this time. I think it's going to be quite a few and definitely a lot more than last time. But not enough to win them the election.