Brexit vote > Trump > Le Pen (?) : worth it ?

[Berberis]

I suppose once folk start using words like loathing and hate when refering to others in a democratic society they become part of the problem themselves. Most can't see it though.

 

When have fascist ever been democratic?

 

---------- Post added 03-01-2017 at 14:00 ----------

 

¿

The left must urgently stand up against "fascism". Some sort of national movement based on socialism is probably what's called for.

It's clearly all the fault of wealthy people and Isreal so something urgently must be done about all those sorts of people.

In the name of freedom all ideas which the righteous representatives of the left deem wrong must be purged from our society, destroyed by any means necessary.

Only in this way can peace, freedom and democracy be preserved.

¿

 

Muppets.

 

I fear a book burning is a brewing.

[unbeliever]

When have fascist ever been democratic?

 

A literal fascist or an anti-immigration party like the FN who get labelled fascist by the ignorant?

 

I don't like the FN either, but I know what words mean.

They're an anti-immigration, hard-socialist party. I see nothing to identify them totalitarian, or authoritarian to the point of being undemocratic. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

 

 

---------- Post added 03-01-2017 at 14:02 ----------

 

I fear a book burning is a brewing.

 

So do I. But it's not at all clear to me which side of the traditional political divide will end up holding the matches.

Edited January 3, 2017 by unbeliever

[Berberis]

A literal fascist or an anti-immigration party like the FN who get labelled fascist by the ignorant?

 

I don't like the FN either, but I know what words mean.

 

I suspect any party can bee considered fascist if they fulfil what the agreed or accepted description of the word.

 

Fascism is generally agreed to be extreme right-wing, authoritarianism with intolerant views or practices, of which all of the proceeding adjectives can be pined on the French NF movement.

 

---------- Post added 03-01-2017 at 14:10 ----------

 

So do I. But it's not at all clear to me which side of the traditional political divide will end up holding the matches.

 

We have seen it all before, and people are correct to worry and to try and oppose what they see as the inevitability of what is happening today in the political world.

 

While countries such as the USA, France, Turkey etc become less stable, other countries, namely Russia and China will seek to benefit from the situation, which will only ever result in problems for us.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Berberis

[unbeliever]

I suspect any party can bee considered fascist if they fulfil what the agreed or accepted description of the word.

 

Fascism is generally agreed to be extreme right-wing, authoritarianism with intolerant views or practices, of which all of the proceeding adjectives can be pined on the French NF movement.

 

What does "extreme right wing mean"? The FN are socialists, so they're not right-wing in economic terms. Is this a euphemism for anti-immigration?

On what grounds to you call them "authoritarian"? Do they object to trial by jury, rule of law, free elections, free press? What is your basis?

 

They're anti-immigration, to the point where one can reasonably infer xenophobia and at a stretch perhaps racism. So really that's all you have on them. In which case you can call them "fascist" if you want, but you're certainly not using the word literally.

The FN are a rather distasteful bunch, but I see no grounds to classify them as a threat to democracy.

 

 

---------- Post added 03-01-2017 at 14:13 ----------

 

 

We have seen it all before, and people are correct to worry and to try and oppose what they see as the inevitability of what is happening today in the political world.

 

While countries such as the USA, France, Turkey etc become less stable, other countries, namely Russia and China will seek to benefit from the situation, which will only ever result in problems for us.

 

What is it that you wish to oppose and what is preventing you from doing do?

By what means should these things be opposed?

You live in a free society and you can argue, campaign and vote for policy which you do not oppose. What other steps are you proposing to take to make policy changes?

Edited January 3, 2017 by unbeliever

[Berberis]

What does "extreme right wing mean"? The NF are socialists, so they're not right-wing in economic terms. Is this a euphemism for anti-immigration?

On what grounds to you call them "authoritarian"? Do they object to trial by jury, rule of law, free elections, free press? What is your basis?

 

They're anti-immigration, to the point where one can reasonably infer xenophobia and at a stretch perhaps racism. So really that's all you have on them. In which case you can call them "fascist" if you want, but you're certainly not using the word literally.

 

The French NF are about as left wing as the BNP. Don't confuse left wing populist pledges with real objectives and remember the political spectrum is not a straight line. The Nazi party itself was called the National Socialist Party remember.

[unbeliever]

The French NF are about as left wing as the BNP. Don't confuse left wing populist pledges with real objectives and remember the political spectrum is not a straight line.

 

The BNP are another group of nationalist socialists who are anti-immigration with strong elements of xenophobia and racism, but they're not fascists either.

 

The Nazi party itself was called the National Socialist Party remember.

 

I made that point on this very page.

In fact your entire post seems to consist of you pointing out to me (as if I didn't know) things which I have just pointed out to you.

Is this some kind of distraction?

 

On what basis do you call the FN "fascists"?

Are they anti-democratic, or just people you and I (and all right thinking people) strongly disagree with on important matters of public policy?

If you call them "fascists" and treat them as such, incorrectly, then you oppress them. I sympathise because I don't like them, but it's morally wrong and profoundly dangerous for you to do so.

Ironically by labelling people unjustly as "fascists" in an effort to exclude them from the political debate and process you're closer to being guilty of fascism than they are.

Edited January 3, 2017 by unbeliever

[Berberis]

The BNP are another group of nationalist socialists who are anti-immigration with strong elements of xenophobia and racism, but they're not fascists either.

 

 

 

I made that point on this very page.

In fact your entire post seems to consist of you pointing out to me (as if I didn't know) things which I have just pointed out to you.

Is this some kind of distraction?

 

On what basis do you call the FN "fascists"?

Are they anti-democratic, or just people you and I (and all right thinking people) strongly disagree with on important matters of public policy?

If you call them "fascists" and treat them as such, incorrectly, then you oppress them. I sympathise because I don't like them, but it's morally wrong and profoundly dangerous for you to do so.

Ironically by labelling people unjustly as "fascists" in an effort to exclude them from the political debate and process you're closer to being guilty of fascism than they are.

 

No distraction what so ever, you seem to have this notion that you and only you know what a fascist is and everyone else is either stupid or plain wrong, but fail to understand the finer points of the political spectrum as a whole.

[Justin Smith]

A literal fascist or an anti-immigration party like the FN who get labelled fascist by the ignorant?

 

I can`t help thinking we`re getting side tracked into literal definitions. The French National Front are an extreme right wing party that all decent people would be embarrassed to be represented by. Like Trump, only more so. Personally I`m also embarrassed by our present government and this partly explains the huge fall off in my patriotism. The point is that if the French National Front get elected (particularly if it`s a close vote) it can be reasonably assumed that it`s a direct result of the Brexit vote, just like Trumps win. Note I`m not saying that those who voted Leave were voting for that or even wanted it (most of them anyway) but that doesn`t stop it being a fact, it`s an unintended consequence. I`m taking it one stage further and asking how what unintended consequences would be required for some of the Brexiteers on here to be asking themselves whether it was all worth it. I`ve already said there`d be circumstances where I`d not have wanted to stay in the EU, but, unless I`ve missed it, I haven`t read anything like that from the Brexiteers. Thus, they must be very hardcore.

[Berberis]

Anyway back to the subject.

 

If things like this are indeed happening in France, I see why the French may be tempted to vote for La Pen:

[gomgeg]

I can`t help thinking we`re getting side tracked into literal definitions. The French National Front are an extreme right wing party that all decent people would be embarrassed to be represented by. Like Trump, only more so. Personally I`m also embarrassed by our present government and this partly explains the huge fall off in my patriotism. The point is that if the French National Front get elected (particularly if it`s a close vote) it can be reasonably assumed that it`s a direct result of the Brexit vote, just like Trumps win. Note I`m not saying that those who voted Leave were voting for that or even wanted it (most of them anyway) but that doesn`t stop it being a fact, it`s an unintended consequence. I`m taking it one stage further and asking how what unintended consequences would be required for some of the Brexiteers on here to be asking themselves whether it was all worth it. I`ve already said there`d be circumstances where I`d not have wanted to stay in the EU, but, unless I`ve missed it, I haven`t read anything like that from the Brexiteers. Thus, they must be very hardcore.

Of course it was worth it, democracy rules.

The majority voted to leave, why should they feel guilty about something that might or not happen in another EU country?

The remoaners are really getting desperate now, I wonder if they feel guilty about the crimes committed here by EU criminals.

Meanwhile back in the real world it's been reported that UK manufacturing showed its best performance for two and a half years, hasn't that cheered you up? More likely to add to the remoaners depression.