Brexit vote > Trump > Le Pen (?) : worth it ?

[Jpeters]

Wow are you really saying that we should be tolerant of fascists?

 

---------- Post added 01-01-2017 at 15:14 ----------

 

 

And another. That's two people on this thread saying we should cut fascists some slack.

 

Stay classy Sheffield forum.

 

I believe that we should tolerate people of all beliefs and that we should judge people on their actions only. Are you suggesting that it is morally acceptable to judge people on their beliefs?

 

I wasn't aware that being a liberal stopped people from having negative feelings towards others?...The right wing haven't got a monopoly on loathing.

 

It doesn't, but you have created a strawman. Being a liberal does stop you from judging whole groups of people based on their beliefs. I find more hatred comes from the left than the right.

 

 

To those of you defending this nasty bigoted behaviour, I would like to pass on some advice given by Mehdi Hassan.

 

If you ever come to speak about a group of people, pause and replace the group of people with the word "Jew" and say the sentence. If it sounds offensive with the word "Jew", it is offensive without it.

 

So, would Halibut be happy to say he "loathes Jews"? Would woahthere ask "Are you saying that we should be tolerant of Jews", in such an incredulous manner.

 

I understand that some people are offended by what fascists believe, but others are offended by what socialists think, or what Muslims think etc. If you are going to be a liberal you have to look past this.

[Robin-H]

I believe that we should tolerate people of all beliefs and that we should judge people on their actions only. Are you suggesting that it is morally acceptable to judge people on their beliefs?

 

 

 

It doesn't, but you have created a strawman. Being a liberal does stop you from judging whole groups of people based on their beliefs. I find more hatred comes from the left than the right.

 

 

To those of you defending this nasty bigoted behaviour, I would like to pass on some advice given by Mehdi Hassan.

 

If you ever come to speak about a group of people, pause and replace the group of people with the word "Jew" and say the sentence. If it sounds offensive with the word "Jew", it is offensive without it.

 

So, would Halibut be happy to say he "loathes Jews"? Would woahthere ask "Are you saying that we should be tolerant of Jews", in such an incredulous manner.

 

I understand that some people are offended by what fascists believe, but others are offended by what socialists think, or what Muslims think etc. If you are going to be a liberal you have to look past this.

 

Whilst I would generally agree with the advice you quoted from Mehdi Hassan, I don't think that logic applies in all scenarios. The Nazi's were a group of people, so are the Klu Klux Klan. Both these groups of people are a group because the people in them share particularly abhorrent beliefs.

 

It wouldn't be particularly offensive to say that you loathe Nazi's or the Klu Klux Klan.

[Jpeters]

Whilst I would generally agree with the advice you quoted from Mehdi Hassan, I don't think that logic applies in all scenarios. The Nazi's were a group of people, so are the Klu Klux Klan. Both these groups of people are a group because the people in them share particularly abhorrent beliefs.

 

It wouldn't be particularly offensive to say that you loathe Nazi's or the Klu Klux Klan.

 

You have two problems there in my opinion.

 

1) I don't hate the Nazis or the KKK because of their beliefs, but because of their actions.

 

2) The logic must apply in all scenarios, otherwise it doesn't work at all. You can't self regulate with this. You can't say "Actually I'm not going to treat this group of people with respect because I don't agree with their views", can you not see how dangerous this would be.

[Robin-H]

You have two problems there in my opinion.

 

1) I don't hate the Nazis or the KKK because of their beliefs, but because of their actions.

 

2) The logic must apply in all scenarios, otherwise it doesn't work at all. You can't self regulate with this. You can't say "Actually I'm not going to treat this group of people with respect because I don't agree with their views", can you not see how dangerous this would be.

 

These groups of people have decided to belong to groups that have abhorrent beliefs, regardless of what actions they might or might not take. A Klu Klux Klan member doesn't have to lynch somebody before I will make the decision that I don't like them - their adoption of repulsive tenets will make that clear from the offset.

 

Why can't you say 'I'm not going to treat a group of people who want to exterminate Jews, gays, gypsies, etc. with respect". Why should I? Not all views are equal, we differentiate people because of that all the time.

 

I'm not saying that people should necessarily be treated legally differently just because of views (although I can foresee a number of scenarios why that would be appropriate) but that should not mean that I have to respect everybody equally.

[Jpeters]

These groups of people have decided to belong to groups that have abhorrent beliefs, regardless of what actions they might or might not take. A Klu Klux Klan member doesn't have to lynch somebody before I will make the decision that I don't like them - their adoption of repulsive tenets will make that clear from the offset.

 

Why can't you say 'I'm not going to treat a group of people who want to exterminate Jews, gays, gypsies, etc. with respect". Why should I? Not all views are equal, we differentiate people because of that all the time.

 

I'm not saying that people should necessarily be treated legally differently just because of views (although I can foresee a number of scenarios why that would be appropriate) but that should not mean that I have to respect everybody equally.

 

If you wish to be considered a liberal you do.

 

I don't judge you on your beliefs, just as I don't judge anyone on theirs. This isn't always easy and it is something I work on.

 

I would categorise a person with your beliefs in the same category as an EDL member, or an anti semite. These people would describe Islam or Judaism as repugnant.

[Robin-H]

If you wish to be considered a liberal you do.

 

I don't judge you on your beliefs, just as I don't judge anyone on theirs. This isn't always easy and it is something I work on.

 

I would categorise a person with your beliefs in the same category as an EDL member, or an anti semite. These people would describe Islam or Judaism as repugnant.

 

Because I said that I don't have equal respect for members of the Klu Klux Klan than for members of say..Médecins Sans Frontières.. you would categorise me as the same as an anti-semite. Wow.

[woahthere]

I believe that we should tolerate people of all beliefs and that we should judge people on their actions only. Are you suggesting that it is morally acceptable to judge people on their beliefs?

 

 

 

It doesn't, but you have created a strawman. Being a liberal does stop you from judging whole groups of people based on their beliefs. I find more hatred comes from the left than the right.

 

 

To those of you defending this nasty bigoted behaviour, I would like to pass on some advice given by Mehdi Hassan.

 

If you ever come to speak about a group of people, pause and replace the group of people with the word "Jew" and say the sentence. If it sounds offensive with the word "Jew", it is offensive without it.

 

So, would Halibut be happy to say he "loathes Jews"? Would woahthere ask "Are you saying that we should be tolerant of Jews", in such an incredulous manner.

 

I understand that some people are offended by what fascists believe, but others are offended by what socialists think, or what Muslims think etc. If you are going to be a liberal you have to look past this.

 

Ha ha ha, wow are you being serious?

 

Do you think fascists got a bad rap during WW2?

 

Fascists have acted and are rightly deserving of universal loathing.

 

That example of yours is laughable when used to promote tolerance of fascists.

[Jpeters]

Because I said that I don't have equal respect for members of the Klu Klux Klan than for members of say..Médecins Sans Frontières.. you would categorise me as the same as an anti-semite. Wow.

 

I would class you as the same because you openly admit to judging people, presumably before you have met them, on their beliefs.

 

Ha ha ha, wow are you being serious?

 

Do you think fascists got a bad rap during WW2?

 

Fascists have acted and are rightly deserving of universal loathing.

 

That example of yours is laughable when used to promote tolerance of fascists.

 

So because some fascists did bad things 70 years ago, you will tar all of them with the same brush, even today? Do you blame all Muslims for the bad things some of them do? If not, why not?

 

If you pick and choose whom you are tolerant of, you are an intolerant person.

[Robin-H]

I would class you as the same because you openly admit to judging people, presumably before you have met them, on their beliefs.

 

 

 

So because some fascists did bad things 70 years ago, you will tar all of them with the same brush, even today? Do you blame all Muslims for the bad things some of them do? If not, why not?

 

If you pick and choose whom you are tolerant of, you are an intolerant person.

 

But you're judging me on my beliefs aren't you?

[Jpeters]

But you're judging me on my beliefs aren't you?

 

Not at all. I just recognise that you are similar in your beliefs to these people, whom I also refuse to judge.