The Consequences of Brexit [part 5] Read 1st post before posting

[whiteowl]

3 hours ago, I1L2T3 said:

The divide and conquer stuff from the bots is getting a bit tiring

One broke down earlier and dumped the contents of a thread from a different forum as a reply 😂 Think it's been rebooted since.

[Cyclone]

6 hours ago, Car Boot said:

Leaving the EU is a part of the British Class Struggle.

The mostly affluent and wealthy Remain voters becoming ever more desperate to keep their advantages and privileges.

The mostly poorer, hitherto ignored but now abused, second class Leave voters bravely standing up for their democratic rights against the might of the Establishment.

The Leave Workers V the Remain Bankers and their allies. Class war has begun. Not a moment too soon.

You couldn't have got it more backwards if you actively tried.  I'm honestly not sure if you're not part of the Russian propaganda machine.

The mostly poorer, mostly less educated, mostly older, have voted for something that is actively harming themselves.  The privileged elite are insulated by piles of money, they won't be hurt.  Rees-Mogg stands to make a personal fortune from the UK leaving.

It's not a class war, it's a propaganda war, and you're either a sucker or actively working to harm the UK.

5 hours ago, Car Boot said:

It is utterly indisputable that the overwhelming majority of big business and the global finance sector want us to Remain in the EU.

Because a healthy economy makes it possible for them to profit.  A healthy economy also keeps people employed, keeps standards of living up and makes for a happier country.

A recession is bad for business, but it's terrible for the poor.

2 hours ago, apelike said:

And you are very predictable. Where have I declared that no harm is being caused? 

He gave examples, so you couldn't take that route obviously.  Instead you went down the route of accusing him of selfishness after you specifically asked for personal examples.

[Magilla]

19 minutes ago, Lockdoctor said:

They have attracted attention. Trump's comment are fair and truthful.

Except they're not, self evidently. The UK is free to pursue trade deals with the USA!

 

What Trump means is he won't sign any deal unless the UK reduces food and animal welfare standards, as well NHS involvement criteria.

 

Wilbur Ross has already stated as much.

 

Arch Brexiteer Micheal Gove stated there will be no drop in food standards and animal welfare in the UK, which if true, already rules out any deal on terms that Trumps government would accept... unless of course, Gove is a liar?

 

Also, the small matter of the NI border. Any deviation in standards means a hard border will have to be enforced, by both the UK and the EU. Whoopsy!

 

Ofcourse, Trump knows a UK standing alone is rich pickings for US corporations in comparison to the whole EU. America first, don't forget!

 

What he's really saying is the proposed deal is bad for him, rather than the UK!

 

So much for fair and truthful eh

 

19 minutes ago, Lockdoctor said:

The difference between Trump and Obama is that Trump is speaking after the UK democratic people made their decision to leave the EU and has discussed potential future trade deals with Mrs May who has led out country's Brexit  negotiations with the EU.

Also shows how quickly leavers "sovereignty" argument went out the window

[Cyclone]

1 hour ago, woodview said:

 

Using the phrase 'Xenophobic cesspit'  is exactly 'Intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself'.

Do you think this country - of which you, your friends, your family are all part of is that ?

I don't. There are a small minority of nasty people here, as there are in most countries. People involved in hate crime need dealing with robustly, and thankfully they are a minority.

I believe most people here are good, kind, honest people. I have different opinions to many / most of them, but when someone describes a whole country as a cesspit, they have clearly moved on to a different level.

Accurately identifying an increase in xenophobia is not demonstrating intolerance.

But it should be noted that you can't appease intolerance by tolerating it.

There are a large proportion of xenophobics in the country, and they've been emboldened to express their opinions by the leave vote as they see it as support.

[Lockdoctor]

18 minutes ago, Litotes said:

But this is where her lack of willingness to listen comes through - she says that she wants to sell her deal to the people of Britain, but she isn't listening to the fact that now she has told us what she thinks, the people of Britain want an opportunity to tell her what they think.

 

She won't allow it- that ain't democracy in action!

 

If she still feels the need to gain approval, then how can the people of Britain show that approval unless they have a platform to do it on?

 

Total hypocrisy from the PM.

I don't really know why you are complaining at the moment because Parliament haven't voted yet on the withdrawal agreement.   At the moment she is trying to sell 'her' deal to the public, who she hopes will tell their MPs to support 'her' deal.  It would be ludicrous for even Mrs May to talk about another referendum before Parliament have voted on 'her' deal. 

5 minutes ago, Magilla said:

Except they're not, self evidently. The UK is free to pursue trade deals with the USA!

 

What Trump means is he won't sign any deal unless the UK reduces food and animal welfare standards, as well NHS involvement criteria.

The reality is Trump isn't going to waste his time discussing future trade deals with the UK when he knows the UK will be trapped in the Customs Union forever,  if the UK  sign up to Mrs May's deal.

[woodview]

11 minutes ago, Cyclone said:

Accurately identifying an increase in xenophobia is not demonstrating intolerance.

But it should be noted that you can't appease intolerance by tolerating it.

There are a large proportion of xenophobics in the country, and they've been emboldened to express their opinions by the leave vote as they see it as support.

What proprtion of the country is xenophobic in your opinion?

What proportion of a country needs to hold objectionable views to define it as a cesspit?

Edited November 27, 2018 by woodview

[Cyclone]

Just now, woodview said:

What proprtion of the country is xenophobic in hour opinion?

What proportion of a country needs to hold objectionable views to define it as a cesspit?

I couldn't put a figure on it, but it's uncomfortably high.

What proportion hold SOME xenophobic opinions, at a guess, it's in the region of 10 - 20 %.

Cesspit is an emotive description, it's someone's opinion.  It's not an objective thing that we can say is true or not.

[woodview]

5 minutes ago, Cyclone said:

I couldn't put a figure on it, but it's uncomfortably high.

What proportion hold SOME xenophobic opinions, at a guess, it's in the region of 10 - 20 %.

Cesspit is an emotive description, it's someone's opinion.  It's not an objective thing that we can say is true or not.

Ok, lets go for 20% (I don't think it's that high), but that doesn't warrant the terminology . I know you like keeping the partisan approach, especially if it involves disagreeing with a dreaded Leaver. I prefer to keep things in perspective.

[L00b]

3 hours ago, woodview said:

prejudice

[prej-uh-dis]

noun

1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.

Except, I'm neither uninformed, nor do I hold a preconceived opinion: my opinion is informed by your media, government messages and actions, and politicians' words and policies.

 

The difference, and the irony, is that you are either uninformed, or unwilling to get better informed, about the extent of the prejudice sufferred by EU immigrants in the UK since before the referendum. You looked up those #alreadynotfine and #inlimbo hashtags yet? Nah, I didn't think so.

3 hours ago, woodview said:

bigotry

/ˈbɪɡətri/

noun

noun: bigotry; plural noun: bigotries

1. intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself.

Except, I'm not intolerant towards Leavers: I engage them with challenging their opinions with facts and counter-arguments.

 

For the rest of it, grow a thicker skin. I've got years' worth of "cheese eating surrender monkey" posts levelled at France and French people on this here forum alone: do you see me outraged? Is the real problem with the boot when it's on the other foot?

[tinfoilhat]

39 minutes ago, Lockdoctor said:

I don't really know why you are complaining at the moment because Parliament haven't voted yet on the withdrawal agreement.   At the moment she is trying to sell 'her' deal to the public, who she hopes will tell their MPs to support 'her' deal.  It would be ludicrous for even Mrs May to talk about another referendum before Parliament have voted on 'her' deal. 

The reality is Trump isn't going to waste his time discussing future trade deals with the UK when he knows the UK will be trapped in the Customs Union forever,  if the UK  sign up to Mrs May's deal.

The reality is (and by reality I mean actual reality not what ever plane you are from) is that a US trade deal that trump wants involves American health companies picking over the NHS and definately, and I can’t stress this enough, definately using American food “standards” (use that term loosely) so they can send us chlorinated chicken and food with rat crap in it. That’s allowed in America. That’s not allowed in the EU. That’s the deal breaker for trump. 

 

As a democratic person, did you democratically and the rest of the democratic people vote for this lot? https://www.livescience.com/55459-fda-acceptable-food-defects.html

 

Yum yum.