I1L2T3 Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 It’s the angriest you’ll ever see a Brexit leader So close to that big pot of gold from asset stripping U.K. companies, selling off sovereignty to the highest corporate bidder, and shafting 65 little million people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penistone999 Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 I suspect Penny neither knows nor cares. I have a picture in my head of him sitting in rags on a pile of rubble, smoking one of his dodgy fags like a scene from Berlin in June 1945 saying "Who cares! We left!" What i care about is the Government delivering the result of the referendum .......... which was to LEAVE the eu . Out government has spent two years trying to find a way remaining in all but name, and that is exactly what this joke of a deal is. We need to now do what we should have done the minute the referendum result was announced ,and that was to trigger article 50 and walk away . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apelike Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 (edited) I think the referendum was profoundly undemocratic in a lot of respects, and more so with every new revelation. But nobody can say the result was not democratically respected. Mays deal is the culmination of two years of respecting the result. The bit that Brexiters miss though is that democracy did not end in 2016. We still have a democratic process, everybody still has a vote and a voice, and every right to use those to change the path we are on. If you say we can’t do that then you don’t understand or respect democracy. I dont think brexiters miss that point at all and do understand the democratic process, and yes we still have a vote and a voice. But that is also conditional on our government through parliament to give us that right in the first place as it is for them to determine the conditions not us. Notice how they determined and voted on exactly who could actually vote in this referendum and ended up excluding many. Notice how they never put any conditions on the vote as they were absolutely crock sure given the last referendum that it would be a remain walkover. Did the people have a voice in that? We, the people, simply cannot dictate to parliament what we desire as that is why we vote in our MP's for. All we can do is lobby our MP and hope for the best and as you know the party comes first! What should be said in this case is that its a perfect example of the thick lower-educated outwitting the well off so called intelligent elite. One thing brexit has brought to the fore is just how archaic our political system is and how it is dividing many, it is now outdated and no longer fit for purpose. I am certain that most of the elderly who voted leave also know that and maybe deliberately gave the politicians a 2 fingered salute by voting leave. Edited November 15, 2018 by apelike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cats Hat Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 Hasn't Dominic Raab just resigned in protest at himself? According to Carbot, Teresa May tied him up, gagged him and locked him in a cupboard underneath the stairs while the negotiations were going on and only let him out yesterday afternoon for the cabinet meeting. Can any Brexiteer explain to me what better deal could have been done by Bojo, Gove and Rees-Smug? It has been like getting blood from a stone or pulling teeth to get this far. By triggering Article 50, the UK has entered these negotiations from a position of incredible weakness. Alongside that, having a land border with another EU country which is protected by the Belfast Agreement, means that the only ways forward are either a customs union or the reunification of Ireland. Nothing else will work. Despite all the crying about an inflexible EU, Barnier wants a deal every bit as much as most people in the UK and he has given more away than maybe he should have to ensure that May gets a deal. The idea that Bojo, Gove or Ress-Smug could do more than maybe shout a bit louder at Barnier and Tusk is laughable as is the idea that Labour could do any better. Right back in 2016 we were told that the UK's economic wellbeing is intrinsically tied up with the EU and while we have every right to leave, it should be done in the knowledge that it will lead to economic and political chaos. Those chickens have now come home to roost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 I dont think brexiters miss that point at all and do understand the democratic process, and yes we still have a vote and a voice. But that is also conditional on our government through parliament to give us that right in the first place as it is for them to determine the conditions not us. Notice how they determined and voted on exactly who could actually vote in this referendum and ended up excluding many. Notice how they never put any conditions on the vote as they were absolutely crock sure given the last referendum that it would be a remain walkover. Did the people have a voice in that? We, the people, simply cannot dictate to parliament what we desire as that is why we vote in our MP's for. All we can do is lobby our MP and hope for the best and as you know the party comes first! One thing brexit has brought to the fore is just how archaic our political system is and how it is dividing many, it is now outdated and no longer fit for purpose. I am certain that most of the elderly who voted leave also know that and maybe deliberately gave the politicians a 2 fingered salute by voting leave. What May has tried to do is listen to everybody. Like Loob said her deal is virtually hard Brexit. But it’s not as hard as it could have been, and coupled with an extendable transition and pathways back to the EU it’s something that enough remainers (I think) could just about live with. But she has also opened up the option of no Brexit and thrown down the gauntlet to parliament with the prospect of no deal. Remember though that for all their noise no-dealers are a very tiny minority of MPs. So there you have it in one great big steaming turd of a deal. Something for everyone. It’s actually quite a feat. I feel a kind of admiration for her for roughing it out and coming up with that in the end. It’s crazy and it’ll never work but she threw scraps to everyone with skin in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bendix Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 It’s actually quite a feat. I feel a kind of admiration for her for roughing it out and coming up with that in the end. It’s crazy and it’ll never work but she threw scraps to everyone with skin in the game. She has had the unenviable job of delivering something she doesn't believe in and, like you, i think she has delivered something which can barely be bettered, given the horrible circumstances the Leave vote left us in. My sense is that soon the No Deal ERG bunch will be revealed for being the tiny extreme group they are (despite the noise) and most Tory MPs will fall into line when the realise the alternative. There will be a leadership attempt by the Tories, but they will lose because none of the usual suspects really believes they have the ability to get anything better and all will shy away, despite the posturing, just as they did a couple of years ago. DUP will be bought off again, and Labour will make its opportunistic noises and threaten to oppose the deal and may even get an election, which they will lose because of Corbyn's pro-Leave position, and sanity will prevail. Just. The ugly angry crowd will get uglier and angrier for a while without being able to explain exactly what it is they want, but they will shut up after a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melthebell Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 Hear that? . . . . . . . . . . thats the sound of 17,410,742 dummies hitting the ground Its amazing how many times "remainers" have had their worries denigrated as "project fear", now all of a sudden "leavers" are guessing, worrying and making things up that might happen to us when we stay in the EU, such as...they might not let us leave, we might be kept prisoner, etc etc project fear part 2. ---------- Post added 15-11-2018 at 17:40 ---------- She has had the unenviable job of delivering something she doesn't believe in and something thats undeliverable in reality without killing our lifestyles and economy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magilla Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 What qualifications should you have to botebin the refendum then? A Phd in international government, is a sports degree from uni of east anglia ok? Of course, that's not the point being made at all, I'm starting to see a pattern here but since you ask, someone who has the intelligence to listen to experts, not villify them as snobbish elites who we're sick of. Leave set out to deliberately mislead people, and it's sad that they succeeded. It's not working out though, unsurprisingly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cats Hat Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 My sense is that soon the No Deal ERG bunch will be revealed for being the tiny extreme group they are (despite the noise) I watched a bit of May's Downing Street press conference and she was asked twice about a no confidence vote and didn't devote much time to either answer. I suspects she knows how small the crank wing of the party is and even if they do manage to get their 40 letters, they will struggle to win a vote of no confidence and are nowhere near getting the 2/3rds of MPs needed to force a leadership bid. So despite today's shenanigans, she is actually in a very strong position. Despite having despised the Tories from before I was even able to vote, I have to say that she has handled today well and has actually personally come across as strong and stable even though her party and the Brexit process is in chaos. She will be in greatest danger if this deal is defeated in Parliament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apelike Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 Hear that? thats the sound of 17,410,742 dummies hitting the ground Its not a done deal yet. But you will probably hear the sound of remainers fainting when a hard brexit is announced though.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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