The Consequences of Brexit [part 4]

[ricgem2002 11]

Would this be the same WSJ owned by Fox?

care to show me where the writer is wrong then

[catpus 10]

I've just done the maths on that!

 

According to the Financial Times the UK economy has lost £60 billion up to and including November 2017 due to Brexit. That is £60,000 million in 17 months. That is £3,529 million per month since June 2016. That is the equivalent of £117 million per day or £4.9 million per hour. Given that the government leaflet you complain about cost £9 million to produce and distribute, the equivalent of that money was lost to the UK in LESS THAN TWO HOURS after the result was announced.

 

Are you seriously complaining about the government spending £9 million pounds on a leaflet when the Brexit vote has so far cost us over 9,000 times

that amount?

 

 

I agree. I am far more disturbed by - The total cost of replacing the Trident nuclear missile system estimated in 2016 to come to at least £205bn, far more than previously estimated, according to figures drawn up by the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.

Work is expected to begin on replacing the UK's nuclear deterrent from the early 2030s,, so heaven knows what the cost will be then?

 

CND calculated the total on the basis of official figures; answers to parliamentary questions and previous costs of items; including nuclear warheads and decommissioning nuclear reactors.

It says it has not taken into account that past Ministry of Defence projects have frequently gone well over budget.

The government is expected soon to ask MPs to vote to replace the existing Trident fleet with four new nuclear submarines. The MoD has already spent nearly £4bn on the replacement programme. Last month, it declined to say how much it thought it would cost to replace Trident, and the ministry said the situation has not changed.

 

“The government needs a safe space away from the public gaze to allow it to consider policy options for delivering the deterrent in the most cost-effective way, unfettered from public comment about the affordability of particular policy options,” it said in response to a freedom of information request from Reuters.

 

(Odd - I thought the Public paid their wages, and that they were accountable? Sorry if I got that wrong.)

 

http://www.theguardian/uk-now/2016/may/12/replacing-trident-will-cost-at-least-25-billion-campaig-for-nuclear-disarmament

Edited March 25, 2018 by catpus
addition

[I1L2T3 10]

care to show me where the writer is wrong then

 

I can’t read it - it’s behind a paywall

 

But.....answer my question please. Is it the same WSJ owned by Fox (I.e. by Murdoch)?

[andyofborg 11]

Thus began the dismantling of all our - Fishing//Coal/Steel/ Ship building/Rail System/and Textile Industries. All allegedly in favour off lower wages - or slave labour that Maggie's investor pals made a killing from (literally.) Except for Germany where that Government 'subsidised' the industries to ensure their workers were happy and they could control the market. It took a while but eventually the German Government came to the realisation that they could save money by keeping wages down and still control the market....

Same old record.

 

this would have happened regardless, this was not the EU. the world was changing, china and the other upcoming countries were industrialising at a rapid pace and out competing the uk, not just because of wage differentials but also because they were embracing new technology and new ways of working.

 

By and large, Britain stopped investing in new plant at the end of the Victorian times for all sorts of reasons, Imperial hubris, intransigent unions, risk aversion of the money lenders.

 

We have a similar situation now, thatcher and time took care of the first two of my reasons but the last one is still an issue. the press is full of stories with the general thrust of we create great things here but cant build them here because the inventors cant get funding.

 

previous governments could have done something, they didn't because they believed the "markets would provide the best solution" and they provided what we have now. previous governments could have given the markets some direction and moral focus which might have led to a better situation than we had now but they didn't so the markets followed the money and we have what we have now.

 

the EU put a floor under workers rights and conditions, it funded schemes to regenerate the old industrial areas. previous governments could have used some of that money, and their own, to drive a massive reskilling, training and education program but they didn't. they left it to the market and by and large the market provided low skill jobs and provided as little training as possible.

 

The reality is - we have been IN the EU 43 years, and it will take at least another 40 years to extricate ourselves, but the goal posts will keep changing to prevent that?

 

if only that were true,

 

Ideally, I would love to return to Sovereignty, and the self sufficient Industries we had prior to the b**ch Thatcher but I'm afraid the Bankers and vampire Investors have too much at stake to let that happen..

I am very sorry to say that we just have to suck it up and ride the wave.

 

there is no particular reason why, post brexit, we can't have self sufficient industries, or even pre brexit with a bit of care, all it needs is government will.

 

we have as much Sovereignty as we ever had. it's such a vague word and without knowing exactly what you mean then I'll assume you are pining over some nostalgic 50s-70s fantasy.

 

Prior to the 1950s we had an empire, from then to the 70s our former colonies were finding their feet in the new world. If you want the fantasy sovereignty back then we retake the empire which probably wont be as easy this time round, and walk away from every international commitment, treaty and organisation.

 

the last bit applies even if we don't try and retake the empire, each organisation, treaty and commitment gives away some soveriegnty.

 

In response to the 'cheap labour picking fruit in Europe' comment - what on earth happened prior to the EU.

 

we used cheap fruit picking labour from the EU, there are two specific issues here one is the government is dragging its feet on the cheap eu fruit pickers replacement scheme and most foreigners think we hate them so they dont want to come.

 

we're at nearly full employment, and fruit picking is not an appealing job when even slightly better ones are available. Offering higher wages will just drive up prices and you only have to read here to see how people howl if they find anything which costs more than 20p.

 

Did we not get fruit and veg from other countries?

 

i remember the pre-single market days, there wasn't much and it was expensive.

 

And- how on earth do all the countries NOT in the EU go about trading with the rest of the World.

 

we're going to find out in 12 months, scary eh!

[melthebell 865]

this would have happened regardless, this was not the EU. the world was changing, china and the other upcoming countries were industrialising at a rapid pace and out competing the uk, not just because of wage differentials but also because they were embracing new technology and new ways of working.

 

By and large, Britain stopped investing in new plant at the end of the Victorian times for all sorts of reasons, Imperial hubris, intransigent unions, risk aversion of the money lenders.

 

We have a similar situation now, thatcher and time took care of the first two of my reasons but the last one is still an issue. the press is full of stories with the general thrust of we create great things here but cant build them here because the inventors cant get funding.

 

previous governments could have done something, they didn't because they believed the "markets would provide the best solution" and they provided what we have now. previous governments could have given the markets some direction and moral focus which might have led to a better situation than we had now but they didn't so the markets followed the money and we have what we have now.

 

the EU put a floor under workers rights and conditions, it funded schemes to regenerate the old industrial areas. previous governments could have used some of that money, and their own, to drive a massive reskilling, training and education program but they didn't. they left it to the market and by and large the market provided low skill jobs and provided as little training as possible.

 

 

 

if only that were true,

 

 

 

there is no particular reason why, post brexit, we can't have self sufficient industries, or even pre brexit with a bit of care, all it needs is government will.

 

we have as much Sovereignty as we ever had. it's such a vague word and without knowing exactly what you mean then I'll assume you are pining over some nostalgic 50s-70s fantasy.

 

Prior to the 1950s we had an empire, from then to the 70s our former colonies were finding their feet in the new world. If you want the fantasy sovereignty back then we retake the empire which probably wont be as easy this time round, and walk away from every international commitment, treaty and organisation.

 

the last bit applies even if we don't try and retake the empire, each organisation, treaty and commitment gives away some soveriegnty.

 

 

 

we used cheap fruit picking labour from the EU, there are two specific issues here one is the government is dragging its feet on the cheap eu fruit pickers replacement scheme and most foreigners think we hate them so they dont want to come.

 

we're at nearly full employment, and fruit picking is not an appealing job when even slightly better ones are available. Offering higher wages will just drive up prices and you only have to read here to see how people howl if they find anything which costs more than 20p.

 

 

 

i remember the pre-single market days, there wasn't much and it was expensive.

 

 

 

we're going to find out in 12 months, scary eh!

 

they enjoy living on mistruths and downright lies, you cant "educate" them

[hackey lad 4,010]

again, we havent actually left yet, there is no brexit yet, we havent even done much in the negotiations yet, but carry on with the positive spin propaganda

 

But yet you and others can post Negative spin propaganda

[ricgem2002 11]

I can’t read it - it’s behind a paywall

 

But.....answer my question please. Is it the same WSJ owned by Fox (I.e. by Murdoch)?

i googled your question and it appears so:roll: care to expand ?

[Litotes 63]

But yet you and others can post Negative spin propaganda

 

Isn't that because we are seeing the negative effects of Brexit without any positive ones?

[catpus 10]

this would have happened regardless, this was not the EU. the world was changing, china and the other upcoming countries were industrialising at a rapid pace and out competing the uk, not just because of wage differentials but also because they were embracing new technology and new ways of working.

 

By and large, Britain stopped investing in new plant at the end of the Victorian times for all sorts of reasons, Imperial hubris, intransigent unions, risk aversion of the money lenders.

 

We have a similar situation now, thatcher and time took care of the first two of my reasons but the last one is still an issue. the press is full of stories with the general thrust of we create great things here but cant build them here because the inventors cant get funding.

 

previous governments could have done something, they didn't because they believed the "markets would provide the best solution" and they provided what we have now. previous governments could have given the markets some direction and moral focus which might have led to a better situation than we had now but they didn't so the markets followed the money and we have what we have now.

 

the EU put a floor under workers rights and conditions, it funded schemes to regenerate the old industrial areas. previous governments could have used some of that money, and their own, to drive a massive reskilling, training and education program but they didn't. they left it to the market and by and large the market provided low skill jobs and provided as little training as possible.

 

 

 

if only that were true,

 

 

 

there is no particular reason why, post brexit, we can't have self sufficient industries, or even pre brexit with a bit of care, all it needs is government will.

 

we have as much Sovereignty as we ever had. it's such a vague word and without knowing exactly what you mean then I'll assume you are pining over some nostalgic 50s-70s fantasy.

 

Prior to the 1950s we had an empire, from then to the 70s our former colonies were finding their feet in the new world. If you want the fantasy sovereignty back then we retake the empire which probably wont be as easy this time round, and walk away from every international commitment, treaty and organisation.

 

the last bit applies even if we don't try and retake the empire, each organisation, treaty and commitment gives away some soveriegnty.

 

 

 

we used cheap fruit picking labour from the EU, there are two specific issues here one is the government is dragging its feet on the cheap eu fruit pickers replacement scheme and most foreigners think we hate them so they dont want to come.

 

we're at nearly full employment, and fruit picking is not an appealing job when even slightly better ones are available. Offering higher wages will just drive up prices and you only have to read here to see how people howl if they find anything which costs more than 20p.

 

i remember the pre-single market days, there wasn't much and it was expensive.

we're going to find out in 12 months, scary eh!

 

What a fantastic change to get an intelligent, well considered response. Thank You.

As you say, things would have changed anyway because the world was changing rapidly. And I did mean to say that I knew our Steel industry was sold out to China because my Brother in Law began importing steel from China at a better price than British?

 

Banks stopped investing in Britain because they could get a better return elsewhere, especially countries in the pipeline for takeover...

And the only reason there is no 'building' here is because of PFI and their extortionate rates - Banks again?

 

The collapse was nothing to do with Unions imo. Proposals were set before them that were unworkable unless they stabbed 75% of the workforce in the back. That was an engineered situation designed to take attention from the fact that The Banks and vampire investors were taking their trade somewhere more lucrative.

 

Yes the EU did 'put a floor under worker's rights and conditions' but only after the horse had bolted and the stable door was firmly shut so they couldn't return?

'Leaving it to the market' - isn't that another way of saying 'See if we can get it somewhere cheaper?'

When I said I want Sovereignty I didn't mean in the Empire meaning which was evil imo. But that we should e able to self determine and make our own laws. And I was only a babe in the 50's in both senses of the word. lol

And I don't recall having any problem getting fruit and veg. Although some were seasonal. At least there were no mountains of stuff thrown away? But we did have mountains of this that and the other when we joined the EU. I was a Community Worker during that time and had to oversee the disposal of the butter to those on benefits.

As you say we will see in 12 months. Though I see the Banks are already calling in the loans and bankrupting everyone in preparation...... asset stripping has been par for the course and the public be damned. So it has already begun.

Time to learn to bake again, eh?

I'm going to watch Homeland at nine, and get my weekly predictive programming fix?

[hackey lad 4,010]

Isn't that because we are seeing the negative effects of Brexit without any positive ones?

 

You only see what you want to

[apelike 10]

I'm going to watch Homeland at nine, and get my weekly predictive programming fix?

 

Now what was it Saul Berenson said about the Russians and Brexit..

[Litotes 63]

You only see what you want to

 

So show me some positives about the decision to leave Europe - actual facts, not predictions...