The Consequences of Brexit [part 4]

[I1L2T3]

Totally agree but someone will be along shortly , telling you, they know what the future holds

 

Look, if somebody (e.g. me) votes remain because they believe that Brexit will be a disaster then don’t be surprised if they produce evidence that Brexit is turning into a disaster.

 

The time for fantasies has gone. Even Farage has basically run away and hardly bothers to defend Brexit in the mainstream media any more. Cummings, the director of Vote Leave, has described Brexit as a disaster.

 

The game has is up. It’s up to Brexiters to persuade remainers that Brexit is a good night idea. Why can’t you do that? If you can’t manage it expect plenty more opposition.

 

---------- Post added 03-11-2017 at 22:48 ----------

 

I can.

 

Reducing the numbers of the political class.

 

Leaving the EU will remove an unnecessary layer of 73 overpaid and underworked politicians from the public purse. This will greatly lift my mood in the morning knowing that these people, whose names escape me (and the majority of UK voter's can't name their MEP either) are no longer a burden to the taxpayer.

 

And that's just the beginning. Good times a' coming...

 

---------- Post added 03-11-2017 at 22:08 ----------

 

 

Let's not.

 

Have you always been an opponent of democracy and freedom?

 

You won’t achieve freedom by leaving the EU. You’re either going to get fairly hard right or fairly hard left government, neither of which care about your freedom.

 

As for democracy there is no requirement for one vote to be set in stone for ever, and a benefit of democracy is that bad decisions can be reversed.

Edited November 3, 2017 by I1L2T3

[apelike]

It’s up to Brexiters to persuade remainers that Brexit is a good night idea. Why can’t you do that? If you can’t manage it expect plenty more opposition.

 

Trouble for you is its not up to the Brexiters to try and persuade any remainer, after all its not the Brexiters that are constantly whinging about Brexit. The remainers on here are moaning about how they have lost money already and are now jumping ship, so the quicker they go the better for all. They wont have to worry about the UK's poor then! According to some those that voted leave may be poorer and worse off, but notice again how its not those voters who are complaining. People did their bit in voting and its now up to the government to deal with Brexit.

[L00b]

Trouble for you is its not up to the Brexiters to try and persuade any remainer, after all its not the Brexiters that are constantly whinging about Brexit. The remainers on here are moaning about how they have lost money already and are now jumping ship, so the quicker they go the better for all. They wont have to worry about the UK's poor then! According to some those that voted leave may be poorer and worse off, but notice again how its not those voters who are complaining. People did their bit in voting and its now up to the government to deal with Brexit.

I think you'll find, on re-reading older posts of some of us remainers, that what we're moaning about is not Brexit per se, but its shambolic management by the government.

 

Case in point:

Most people think Theresa May's biggest mistake was calling the snap election in which her government lost MPs.

 

In fact, it was the decision she made on October 2, 2016, to trigger Article 50 without fully understanding how that gives an advantage to the EU in the Brexit talks.

When the consequences of that decision and the sizeable and automatic advantage to the EU, were plainly and abundantly clear -and predictable by reason of same- to most people with a brain long before May did the deed in March 2017.

 

Case in point (note the date):

I wonder what the legal ramifications are if the EU doesn't complete it's side of Article 50 within the two year timescale.

The negotiations continue. But with the UK on the outside rather than still in, if there is no extension. And thus with the UK compelled to implement WTO rules (and tariffs) overnight.

 

It's not in the UK's economic interest to stall, due to the ongoing effect of uncertainty on markets, investments (foreign and domestic) and more, whilever Art.50 isn't triggered and for however long it then takes to finalise a deal. It is in the EU and the 27's interest to stall, given the above paragraph.

You're not telling me our Prime Minister and her senior advisers did not know the consequences of triggering Article 50 "too early". As evidenced beyond any reasonable doubt by Sir Ivan Rogers' testimony.

 

Adverting to the above, and given the unprecedented levels of obfuscation to Parliamentary scrutiny and constitutional due process by the government since July 2016, the path down which May, Davis, Fox and Johnson are deliberately leading the UK and all who sail in her, is plain to see, and it absolutely isn't in your or anybody else's best interests, bar those of the profiteers who stand to make a coin or ten out of the post-Brexit chaos, being the very same people/interest groups who bankrolled the Leave campaign, who are still bankrolling the no deal-seeking hardline Tories and are pushing them at the a55.

 

If that pecuniary interest coincides with your beliefs, no problem. It's your choice and conscience, enjoy the ride you're defending.

 

But you don't get to blame those of us who continue to argue in the defence of our own best interests and those of the many, including those not able to see the post-Brexit forest for the populist tree.

 

Nor do you get to blame those of us who can and do vote with our feet to preserve our own best interests, in the face of the government's continuing no deal-seeking approach to Brexit and the March 2019 (October 2018, really: 11 months to go) deadline.

 

Because our best interests clearly haven't been looked after by the government for the past 18 months -and still aren't- in any way, shape or form.

 

I owe 'the UK' what No.11 says I do until the day I leave, the UK owes me my NI-accrued pensions right, nothing more owed in either case. That's the mercenary trading model at the heart of the Brexit ideology, by the way (no element or dimension of social conscience whatsoever), so put your attitude where your beliefs are, and perhaps "get used to it".

Edited November 4, 2017 by L00b

[I1L2T3]

Trouble for you is its not up to the Brexiters to try and persuade any remainer, after all its not the Brexiters that are constantly whinging about Brexit. The remainers on here are moaning about how they have lost money already and are now jumping ship, so the quicker they go the better for all. They wont have to worry about the UK's poor then! According to some those that voted leave may be poorer and worse off, but notice again how its not those voters who are complaining. People did their bit in voting and its now up to the government to deal with Brexit.

 

It’s absolutely up to Brexiters to prove that this will be a success.

 

Who else could it possibly be up to? Think about it!

 

Before you answer remember that the government’s handling of Brexit is spearheaded by Brexiters.

[Car Boot]

Those who voted Leave in the referendum have absolutely no requirement to try and persuade those who supported Remain to believe that Brexit is positive and desirable.

 

The Remainers were not persuaded of this during the referendum campaign, which they lost (did some of them not get the memo?). The panic and hysteria of a few of these remainers, as they imagine imminent economic armageddon, is pure theatre.

 

As for triggering Article 50, most Leavers I talk to believe it should have happened the day after the referendum result was known. It was delayed for no good reason.

[I1L2T3]

Those who voted Leave in the referendum have absolutely no requirement to try and persuade those who supported Remain to believe that Brexit is positive and desirable.

 

The Remainers were not persuaded of this during the referendum campaign, which they lost (did some of them not get the memo?). The panic and hysteria of a few of these remainers, as they imagine imminent economic armageddon, is pure theatre.

 

As for triggering Article 50, most Leavers I talk to believe it should have happened the day after the referendum result was known. It was delayed for no good reason.

 

You can’t blame people for not being persuaded by blatant lies.

[Magilla]

Those who voted Leave in the referendum have absolutely no requirement to try and persuade those who supported Remain to believe that Brexit is positive and desirable.

 

They do if they want it to be in any way permanent or successful.

 

The notion of Brexit being positive for the majority of those that voted for it has long been dropped or radically scaled back, even by Vote Leave! You can't make the case, as is evident by your squirming when asked to do so, because it clearly doesn't exist!

 

Also, if it ain't successful you're going to be needing a new forum account again

 

The Remainers were not persuaded of this during the referendum campaign, which they lost (did some of them not get the memo?). The panic and hysteria of a few of these remainers, as they imagine imminent economic armageddon, is pure theatre.

 

Well we've lost 1/4 of one years GDP since the Brexit vote. The NHS and social care are in crisis, police can no longer afford to investigate some crimes, and our military has reduced capability. Less cash sloshing about isn't going to help that... Reality isn't theatre unfortunately.

 

The reality now is that unless we can secure a good deal from the EU, there is a very high chance of imminent economic armageddon for the majority of those that voted for it. Even the "best case" scenarios for that are pretty grim reading.

 

As for triggering Article 50, most Leavers I talk to believe it should have happened the day after the referendum result was known. It was delayed for no good reason.

 

That the reason eludes both you and your leaver friends is the bit anyone with moderate intelligence should be concerned about, it clearly shows you really don't have a grasp of what's involved or what the consequences are. They probably have a similar level of understanding as you have shown in your posts here. Most of which are proven to be, let's say, "economical" with the truth.

 

You continually prove the point of why some have good reason to skeptical.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Magilla

[L00b]

Those who voted Leave in the referendum have absolutely no requirement to try and persuade those who supported Remain to believe that Brexit is positive and desirable.

It's in your best interest to persuade remainers, to get them onboard early for achieving that fabled Brexit 'that works for all'.

 

Or you'll not heal the deep divide between both camps in this country, which ties the UK socio-economically at the ankles, and will continue to do so for years and years.

 

If it doesn't get healed and Brexit does not work out, expect the backlash to be severe.

The Remainers were not persuaded of this during the referendum campaign, which they lost (did some of them not get the memo?). The panic and hysteria of a few of these remainers, as they imagine imminent economic armageddon, is pure theatre.

I'll just leave this here (previously posted in t'thread, I take no credit):

 

January 2017 Prediction: expect fields of rotting crops in UK if EU migrants don't come after the referendum

June 2017 Realisation: EU migrant workers are not coming this year

November 2017 Expected Consequence: fields are full of rotting crops

 

I'm quietly confident that the above is to be found within the 'agricultural' sectoral report of the 58 sectoral reports. And the above chronological play-out is plain, clear and incontrovertible evidence that the crops/seasonal labour issue -like so many others- has been wholly caused by the referendum and wholly unmanaged by the UK's government.

 

That chronological play-out is neither evidence that the crops/labour problem will endure (or not), nor that there will be a food supply (or other economical) "apocalypse". However, it clearly is evidence that the UK government cannot be relied upon to help manage even the short-term consequences of the referendum. Feel free to draw any conclusions from that state of affairs.

 

It's just one isolated real life example of a fully-predictable (and predicted) effect of Brexit, duly realised, moreover pre-Brexit. There are thousands more, some already underway (NHS staffing crisis), most yet to manifest (but entirely predictable -and long predicted- in exactly the same manner as the above example), of which certain ones are critical to sustaining most of the economic health of this country.

 

No remain bias needed whatsoever: just plain rational analysis, and no more difficult to grasp than when exercising common sense to warn a friend not to shoot themselves in the head, after they heard some quack advise that it will solve all their problems.

 

See, we have nothing much left to prove to Leavers: we are being vindicated by post-referendum events day-in, day-out. And we have yet to see a single pre-referendum Brexit promise delivered: where's the easiest trade deal in the world with the EU? where's the queue of third party countries desperate to give us FTAs?

 

So its up to you Leavers to prove to us how the UK is going to get over most of these unavoidable consequences, and within what timescale. A costed proposal would be nice, as well. Just so we can bury that £350m 'thing' once and for all, like

 

Not that I believe for one minute that you can understand the principle of "best interests", or that you are capable of shelving your ideological bias for a second to exercise logic and help bring about a 'working' Brexit before the cliff-edge becomes unavoidable, that said: you are the virtual embodiment of blind ideology on these boards.

 

apelike is at least thoughtful and makes argumentative sense in his posts.

Edited November 4, 2017 by L00b

[retep]

It's in your best interest to persuade remainers, to get them onboard early for achieving that fabled Brexit 'that works for all'.

 

Or you'll not heal the deep divide between both camps in this country, which ties the UK socio-economically at the ankles, and will continue to do so for years and years.

 

If it doesn't get healed and Brexit does not work out, expect the backlash to be severe.

I'll just leave this here (previously posted in t'thread, I take no credit):

 

January 2017 Prediction: expect fields of rotting crops in UK if EU migrants don't come after the referendum

June 2017 Realisation: EU migrant workers are not coming this year

November 2017 Expected Consequence: fields are full of rotting crops

 

I'm quietly confident that the above is to be found within the 'agricultural' sectoral report of the 58 sectoral reports. And the above chronological play-out is plain, clear and incontrovertible evidence that the crops/seasonal labour issue -like so many others- has been wholly caused by the referendum and wholly unmanaged by the UK's government.

 

That chronological play-out is neither evidence that the crops/labour problem will endure (or not), nor that there will be a food supply (or other economical) "apocalypse". However, it clearly is evidence that the UK government cannot be relied upon to help manage even the short-term consequences of the referendum. Feel free to draw any conclusions from that state of affairs.

 

It's just one isolated real life example of a fully-predictable (and predicted) effect of Brexit, duly realised, moreover pre-Brexit. There are thousands more, some already underway (NHS staffing crisis), most yet to manifest (but entirely predictable -and long predicted- in exactly the same manner as the above example).

 

No remain bias needed whatsoever: just simple rational analysis.

 

See, we have nothing much left to prove to Leavers: we are being vindicated by post-referendum events day-in, day-out. And we have yet to see a single pre-referendum Brexit promise delivered: where's the easiest trade deal in the world with the EU? where's the queue of third party countries desperate to give us FTAs?

 

So its up to you Leavers to prove to us how the UK is going to get over most of these unavoidable consequences, and within what timescale.

 

Not that I believe for one minute that you can understand the principle of "best interests", or that you are capable of shelving your ideological bias for a second to exercise logic and help bring about a 'working' Brexit before the cliff-edge becomes unavoidable, that said: you are the virtual embodiment of blind ideology on these boards.

 

apelike is at least thoughtful and makes argumentative sense in his posts.

 

Doom Doom and more Doom,

but on the other foot,

 

"Biggest Brexit LOSERS: Shock charts show which EU states will suffer most from budget hole"

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/874647/Brexit-news-shock-EU-Parliament-report-reveals-biggest-CAP-losers

 

but not to worry L00b'y is coming to the rescue.

[L00b]

Doom Doom and more Doom,

In your haste to not make a point and quote yet another Express headline (what's the count by now? 20? 50?), you missed the message of hope calling for reconciliation at the opening of my post

 

(by the way, are we in for yet another snowmaggeddon this year? )

but not to worry L00b'y is coming to the rescue.

Nope, no more rescue coming from me, you'll be pleased to hear. Q1 2018 is the timescale, but probably sooner. But you knew that.

 

Just the usual commenting of the unfolding car crash, and warnings, until I get bored or the UK goes under or Brexit doesn't really happen, whichever comes first.