The Consequences of Brexit [part 4]

[Car Boot]

The prosperity of this country *is* linked to this club of other countries, so membership by which we can influence the club would seem to be common sense.

 

How will Brexit improve matters, since that will reduce our influence even more?

 

As the number of member states has grown, now at 28 countries, UK influence has diminished. Just ask David Cameron, who discovered to his cost that the 27 other EU countries were extremely reluctant to create different rules just for the UK. His very weak 'deal' opened the eyes of many to just what sort of relationship we really have with the EU.

 

The EU cannot be decentralised, and the UK cannot prosper on its fringes, as it hurries towards ever closer political union.

 

So much for our 'influence'!

 

Better off out.

[I1L2T3]

There you go again, typical remoan loser. I never said I was angry about working on the tools for fifty years, in fact I was quite happy as it was something I was and still am good at, and didn't work for fifty years on the shop floor, I had several jobs and the last few years was self employed, after getting fed up listening to the moaning of fellow workers in my last employment which was in the public sector, most of who by the way had never worked anywhere else.

This thread is about brexit and the remoaners have turned it into something that gives them the chance to make up stories and brag about how well they've done because they are the more intelligent.

What all the champagne socialist seem to forget was that the working class and I emphasise the word WORKING were the main group of people who voted for brexit, and the main reason was that they were fed up of being taken for granted, and the assumption that they would always do as they were told.

David Blunkett was the Home Secretary when the floodgates were opened to the Eastern Europeans who came here for various reasons, better housing, education, health care, benefits and jobs etc, but immigrants don't come here to do missionary work or for humanitarian reasons, they came for something better than they had in their own countries. He moved to Derbyshire quick enough, I wonder why he didn't move to Page Hall.

All the things above were reasons for the brexit vote by the working classes as they are the ones who've seen the main effects of mass immigration,he certainly didn't see that coming, no pun intended.

 

The evidence points otherwise. People in areas of high employment were likely to vote remain. People in areas of high unemployment with high take-up of benefits and tax credits were more likely to vote leave.

 

Let’s put to bed this preposterous idea that the people who voted leave have a monopoly on being normal, decent hardworking people. People who voted remain share those attributes too. The difference is that in deprived areas people feel they have lost control and are voting for change, and have been led to believe the EU is the cause of their woes. In simple terms those people must be insane to think Fox and Johnson have their best interests at heart.

 

We can fix these problems if we understand them, and there is no need to leave the EU to understand them or fix them. When you understand that the likes of Johnson and Fox see people in deprived areas - or in fact probably most of the UK population - as an exploitable underclass then you’ll understand what is coming. On this last point if you argue about it there’s literally a shed load of evidence and I’ll happily produce it.

[Car Boot]

Blame your government not the EU.

 

Blame the Government AND the EU.

[sgtkate]

You perhaps haven't noticed but the remainers lost the referendum.

And I will always have a go back when someone has a go at me or my family either verbally or physically, it's a working class thing. And most of the mud slinging on this thread has come consistently from certain remainers on here.

As for the rising costs and falling wages, there is an opinion from some that food prices will fall when the UK can make its own trade deals, and also that wages are being held down by mass immigration. To add to that some also feel that housing costs have risen and health care and education have also suffered for the same reason.

It's up to the individual who they believe on different sides of the argument and I've seen no sign of anyone I know who voted for either side changing their opinion. I'm OK with that fair enough, I'm not going to change your opinion and you're not going to change mine, but you're correct we can at least be civil on both sides, and it might be a good idea if some of the sneering stopped from some on here. They might not know but it is counter productive.

 

I agree with you on how angry this discussion has got. I'm really not a 'gloating' remainer. I worry about how Brexit will affect some of the most vulnerable in the UK and in fact my main motivation ironically was the same as yours, to protect some of the worst off in UK society. The difference is how we see doing that. For you, the 'blame' lies at the feet of the EU with their open borders policy, for me it's actually our own politicians who make rules that undermine employees rights. Which of us is right? I'm sure we can both find believable evidence to support our view.

 

I find it sad and a bit upsetting that both sides are accusing the other side of somehow trying to screw the poor over and I doubt that's the case at all. Nearly everyone who has given reasons for why they voted how they did on this thread has said they wanted to protect workers rights and improve things for the masses. Apart from Car Boot, no one has said that they voted a certain way to try to shaft the poor or shaft the rich. I'm pleased about that as trying to screw over another group rather than trying to improve things for everyone tends to backfire.

 

None of us know the future and we will never know how things would have gone if we'd voted the other way either. I voted remain simply because I felt the status quo was ok, certainly it wasn't terrible enough for us to chuck it down the pan and go it alone, and the more information that comes out the more I agree with my original stance.

 

If I came across like I was implying you didn't work hard enough then please accept my apologies. That wasn't at all what I was trying to say, just making the point that you can come across like you feel life owes you something and therefore I was implying if that was the case then why didn't you change something to make things better for yourself? You answered that clearly by saying you did a job you enjoyed which is definitely better than a lot of people.

[gomgeg]

I agree with you on how angry this discussion has got. I'm really not a 'gloating' remainer. I worry about how Brexit will affect some of the most vulnerable in the UK and in fact my main motivation ironically was the same as yours, to protect some of the worst off in UK society. The difference is how we see doing that. For you, the 'blame' lies at the feet of the EU with their open borders policy, for me it's actually our own politicians who make rules that undermine employees rights. Which of us is right? I'm sure we can both find believable evidence to support our view.

 

I find it sad and a bit upsetting that both sides are accusing the other side of somehow trying to screw the poor over and I doubt that's the case at all. Nearly everyone who has given reasons for why they voted how they did on this thread has said they wanted to protect workers rights and improve things for the masses. Apart from Car Boot, no one has said that they voted a certain way to try to shaft the poor or shaft the rich. I'm pleased about that as trying to screw over another group rather than trying to improve things for everyone tends to backfire.

 

None of us know the future and we will never know how things would have gone if we'd voted the other way either. I voted remain simply because I felt the status quo was ok, certainly it wasn't terrible enough for us to chuck it down the pan and go it alone, and the more information that comes out the more I agree with my original stance.

 

If I came across like I was implying you didn't work hard enough then please accept my apologies. That wasn't at all what I was trying to say, just making the point that you can come across like you feel life owes you something and therefore I was implying if that was the case then why didn't you change something to make things better for yourself? You answered that clearly by saying you did a job you enjoyed which is definitely better than a lot of people.

Thanks for that.

You say you voted remain because you felt the status quo was OK, well I voted to leave for the opposite reason. Some on here say the EU could be changed if we remained even though there had been never any sign of that happening as the mandarins in Brussels moved towards a more federal state.

We joined a common market originally and moved further away from that over the years with the electorate being taken for granted.

David Cameron came back with a pathetic deal with vague promises for the future because again he thought the electorate were mugs and would fall for it.

If that deal had been even a little bit better and taken more control back I'm sure the vote would have gone the other way. Just another example of 'we know better than you'.

[I1L2T3]

Blame the Government AND the EU.

 

In what proportion?

 

---------- Post added 03-11-2017 at 18:42 ----------

 

Thanks for that.

You say you voted remain because you felt the status quo was OK, well I voted to leave for the opposite reason. Some on here say the EU could be changed if we remained even though there had been never any sign of that happening as the mandarins in Brussels moved towards a more federal state.

We joined a common market originally and moved further away from that over the years with the electorate being taken for granted.

David Cameron came back with a pathetic deal with vague promises for the future because again he thought the electorate were mugs and would fall for it.

If that deal had been even a little bit better and taken more control back I'm sure the vote would have gone the other way. Just another example of 'we know better than you'.

 

That’s where you’re wrong because the UK has been able to sidestep the excesses of the EU. Schengen, Dubs, adoption of the Euro (despite heroic attempts to keep it on track by the Tories in 91-92) and fiscal integration, political alignment etc... We have avoided strong commitment to an EU army.

 

As I argued before Cameron succeeded in getting a commitment to a treaty-based opt-out for continuing further integration into the EU. There was no need to catapult out of the EU, and the referendum result should have been seen as a starting point for leverage not as the trigger for a national suicide mission.

 

Just to add we could not have picked a worse person to be dealing with this. May is a catastrophe.

 

---------- Post added 03-11-2017 at 18:59 ----------

 

£930 extra a year on a family food bill if no deal

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/03/no-deal-brexit-could-add-930-a-year-to-uk-shopping-bills-say-experts

 

That’s somewhere between £500-600m a week for the country.

 

Eclipses the mythical £350m a week

 

Insanity. Pure and utter madness. Let’s stop this as soon as we can.

[tinfoilhat]

Thanks for that.

You say you voted remain because you felt the status quo was OK, well I voted to leave for the opposite reason. Some on here say the EU could be changed if we remained even though there had been never any sign of that happening as the mandarins in Brussels moved towards a more federal state.

We joined a common market originally and moved further away from that over the years with the electorate being taken for granted.

David Cameron came back with a pathetic deal with vague promises for the future because again he thought the electorate were mugs and would fall for it.

If that deal had been even a little bit better and taken more control back I'm sure the vote would have gone the other way. Just another example of 'we know better than you'.

 

I understand why you think the EU isn't great - it's deeply flawed and expensive for what it is. But how is us leaving going to improve your lot, or for that matter mine? Nobody can answer that it would appear.

[Car Boot]

Insanity. Pure and utter madness. Let’s stop this as soon as we can.

 

Let's stop all of the 'Doomed! DOOMED! We're all DOOMED!' wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

The sky is not going to fall in.

 

World War III is not about to break out.

 

Deep breath and CALM.

[hackey lad]

Let's stop all of the 'Doomed! DOOMED! We're all DOOMED!' wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

The sky is not going to fall in.

 

World War III is not about to break out.

 

Deep breath and CALM.

 

Totally agree but someone will be along shortly , telling you, they know what the future holds

[Car Boot]

I understand why you think the EU isn't great - it's deeply flawed and expensive for what it is. But how is us leaving going to improve your lot, or for that matter mine? Nobody can answer that it would appear.

 

I can.

 

Reducing the numbers of the political class.

 

Leaving the EU will remove an unnecessary layer of 73 overpaid and underworked politicians from the public purse. This will greatly lift my mood in the morning knowing that these people, whose names escape me (and the majority of UK voter's can't name their MEP either) are no longer a burden to the taxpayer.

 

And that's just the beginning. Good times a' coming...

 

---------- Post added 03-11-2017 at 22:08 ----------

 

Insanity. Pure and utter madness. Let’s stop this as soon as we can.

 

Let's not.

 

Have you always been an opponent of democracy and freedom?

Edited November 3, 2017 by Car Boot