Andy Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I think it's clear that we're never going to agree... If you believe that the State owes you, then you will never accept Thatcher's political view. There is no motivation for aspiration if the State provides you with a job (the job they want you to do), and a house (a house where they say you can live) and they control almost every aspect of your life, bar the choice have children or not. I don't think, fundamentally, that the state's role is to create employment by directly managing industry. Of course they should create employment by encouraging investment into the UK, by providing education to make sure there is a pool of skilled employees, and by providing an environment where businesses can become established and thrive. This is why I accept that the mines had to close. If they were profitable they should have been transferred to private ownership but those which weren't profitable had no future. The reason I dislike Thatcher is the way she went about the closure. The state had employed people (whether that was right or wrong) and so rather than simply letting them go, they should have managed the decline of the industry. School leavers should know that there is no future in the pits so they have to study alternative subjects if they want to suceed. Those working in the pits should have been encouraged to learn new skills and companies should have been encouraged to set up in mining areas, assured of a supply of willing, available and hard working labour. This would have caused much less pain that the "big bang" of closures we saw. Someone else in this thread said 'if there had been a guaranteed job for me down the pit, who knows whether I would have tried harder at school and gone to uni to get better exam passes'. I know, they would not. Why try to better yourself if you know where your destiny lies? That was me. The point I was making that many people I knew did think there was a job for them waiting at the mine, and planned their life around this. When they found that there was no such job, and there were thousands of other people competing for a part time job in the local fish and chip shop, it was a disaster. And one that with compassion could have been avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister M Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 (edited) It's more like forcing their thoughts and opinions on others on this forum!! It's like a civil war sometimes It's sad that some people have so much anger inside them. For god's sake, just agree to disagree, move on, and have a happier life. I agree. Years after she was knifed in the front by her own she still bitterly complained about losing her job - as did Tebbit in his House of Lords tribute - 23 years after the event. He should've told her to get on her bike (23 years ago, not now obviously)! Edited April 17, 2013 by Mister M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem8634 Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 (edited) Such rubbish. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16361170 Result: Regenerated Liverpool and a cleaned up Mersey. Whether you consider Heseltine's input to be beneficial and long-lasting, and many do, the fact that he had to persuade Thatcher hardly suggests that she was entirely sympathetic to the project or the plight of those concerned. The files show that when Michael Heseltine pressed the case to save Britain's inner cities with his cabinet paper, It Took a Riot, they ensured his demand for £100m a year of new money for two years for Liverpool alone was met with a paltry offer of £15m, with the condition that "no publicity should be given to this figure"... ... While she stood firm against Heseltine's attempt to create a traditional Tory drive to save Britain's inner cities, Whitelaw set about re-equipping the police with more modern helmets, shields and batons that would prove as important as building up coal stocks in Thatcher's showdown with the miners in 1984. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/dec/30/thatcher-government-liverpool-riots-1981 Edited April 17, 2013 by mikem8634 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister M Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 It's been sickening hasn't it Mister M. It's like a Thatcher Cult has taken over at the BBC with people falling over themselves to win the most craven person of the year award. Agreed it is sickening. I fully expect to see on the bbc/itv news in 3 days time that Margaret Thatcher has risen from grave and will ascend to the heavens where she will be seated at the right hand side of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSmith Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I think it's clear that we're never going to agree... I don't think, fundamentally, that the state's role is to create employment by directly managing industry. Of course they should create employment by encouraging investment into the UK, by providing education to make sure there is a pool of skilled employees, and by providing an environment where businesses can become established and thrive. This is why I accept that the mines had to close. If they were profitable they should have been transferred to private ownership but those which weren't profitable had no future. The reason I dislike Thatcher is the way she went about the closure. The state had employed people (whether that was right or wrong) and so rather than simply letting them go, they should have managed the decline of the industry. School leavers should know that there is no future in the pits so they have to study alternative subjects if they want to suceed. Those working in the pits should have been encouraged to learn new skills and companies should have been encouraged to set up in mining areas, assured of a supply of willing, available and hard working labour. This would have caused much less pain that the "big bang" of closures we saw. That was me. The point I was making that many people I knew did think there was a job for them waiting at the mine, and planned their life around this. When they found that there was no such job, and there were thousands of other people competing for a part time job in the local fish and chip shop, it was a disaster. And one that with compassion could have been avoided. So anyone leaving school in the 80’s would have been mad to aspire to be a miner. My farther knew there was no future down the mines for his sons, so why didn’t other miners also know this. Number of people employed in UK coal mines. 1920, 1,250,000 1925, 1,100,000 1930, 900,000 1935, 800,000 1950, 700,000 1960, 634,000 1965, 456,000 1970, 287,000 1975, 247,000 1980, 230,000 1985, 138,000 1990, 57,000 2000, 8,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bloom Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 If you believe that the State owes you, then you will never accept Thatcher's political view. How does this fit in with her believing the State owed her a 10 mill + funeral? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw47 Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Such rubbish. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16361170 Result: Regenerated Liverpool and a cleaned up Mersey. Tremendous! And the rest of the North? Scotland? Northern Ireland? One gesture of decency does not a decent person make when taken in context with the rest of their actions. Oh and I'm still waiting for some Thatcher fan to explain how her beloved Mark came to benefit to the tune of £20 million from an arms deal she signed off on. Dents the halo a bit that one doesn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francypants Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 So anyone leaving school in the 80’s would have been mad to aspire to be a miner. My farther knew there was no future down the mines for his sons, so why didn’t other miners also know this. Number of people employed in UK coal mines. 1920, 1,250,000 1925, 1,100,000 1930, 900,000 1935, 800,000 1950, 700,000 1960, 634,000 1965, 456,000 1970, 287,000 1975, 247,000 1980, 230,000 1985, 138,000 1990, 57,000 2000, 8,000 Why ? because they're just like sheep and can't think for themselves. Same with voting, it's always been " my dad always voted Labour so I do " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryh Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 just come back from the party at goldthorpe brilliant day out shegot a good send of ha ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francypants Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 just come back from the party at goldthorpe brilliant day out shegot a good send of ha ha Has the party ended now ? Was it just for the unemployed ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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