The Labour Party - Part 2

[L00b 441]

2 hours ago, hackey lad said:

Need to be retired, to be replaced by who ?

Anyone else, at this stage.

 

The Monster Raving Loony party could not conceivably be, or do, worse.

[L00b 441]

22 minutes ago, Anna B said:

I'm hoping people will start to realise that our so called 'democracy' is anything but.

 

I agree that both parties should be retired, but I doubt very much it will ever happen.

 

I'd like to see a new form of government with PR, and all decisions for the way forward to be made cross party, so different demographics and points of view would be considered and with a free vote. I wince when I watch important debates in the house of commons attended by only a handful of MPs.

I realise there is a good chance of chaos with this, (but we've got that anyway,) and the good of the country and the wellbeing of its people should be a unifying force.

Unfortunately there's far too much self interest going on at the moment, no wonder the system has become a hotbed of corruption, plus too many lobbyists, donors and whips sticking their oar in. 

Our government system harks back 200 years, built on a class system and beset with traditions (which a lot of politicians actually glory in,) that have no place in a modern, fast moving world. Scrap the lot, and let's start again with the best system we can devise that truly represents the people, and can start to tackle some very modern problems. 

 

You are never going to get that (bit in bold) whilever the Labour-Tory bipartisanship endures.

The only realistic way of achieving that (well, progress towards-), currently, would be through tactical voting on a coordinated, nationwide scale. There are initiatives underway, that are getting road-tested in by-elections. But far too few people are aware of them, never mind engaging with them.
 

Which is what leads me to think, that the 2 years to the next GE is not enough lead time. Maybe growing discontent over that timescale will/could have an accelerating effect. It’s just a crying shame that it needs still more misery to be foisted onto people, to get there.

[Jeffrey Shaw 93]

Those who grumble about the UK's political system have little experience of the world's more iniquitous alternatives!

[Anna B 1,417]

23 minutes ago, Jeffrey Shaw said:

Those who grumble about the UK's political system have little experience of the world's more iniquitous alternatives!

Or the better ones....

[Anna B 1,417]

1 hour ago, L00b said:

You are never going to get that (bit in bold) whilever the Labour-Tory bipartisanship endures.

The only realistic way of achieving that (well, progress towards-), currently, would be through tactical voting on a coordinated, nationwide scale. There are initiatives underway, that are getting road-tested in by-elections. But far too few people are aware of them, never mind engaging with them.
 

Which is what leads me to think, that the 2 years to the next GE is not enough lead time. Maybe growing discontent over that timescale will/could have an accelerating effect. It’s just a crying shame that it needs still more misery to be foisted onto people, to get there.

Well good luck with that....

Seriously. I've heard nothing about it, but my experience with anything  'coordinated on a nationwide scale' has not been good. People generally don't want to give politics the time and scrutiny it needs, much less understand tactical voting. However things are so bad, maybe they will in the future. I genuinely wish you every success with it, we've got to try something to break the stranglehold. I really don't want to see pitchforks on the street.

[hobinfoot 25]

7 minutes ago, Anna B said:

Well good luck with that....

Seriously. I've heard nothing about it, but my experience with anything  'coordinated on a nationwide scale' has not been good. People generally don't want to give politics the time and scrutiny it needs, much less understand tactical voting. However things are so bad, maybe they will in the future. I genuinely wish you every success with it, we've got to try something to break the stranglehold. I really don't want to see pitchforks on the street.

Tactical voting would get us what ?

[Dromedary 166]

4 minutes ago, hobinfoot said:

Tactical voting would get us what ?

A hung parliament still run by the 3 major stakeholders where nothing changes except the weather.

 

Quote by L00b:

 

"There are initiatives underway, that are getting road-tested in by-elections. But far too few people are aware of them, never mind engaging with them."

 

Meanwhile 20 years in the future....

 

There were initiatives underway that got road-tested in a few by-elections but as few people were aware of them nothing happened and they got abandoned.....

[L00b 441]

46 minutes ago, hobinfoot said:

Tactical voting would get us what ?

Not Tory, and preferably not Labour either, but a mixed bag of everything which forces governance by ad hoc alliances, i.e. consensus.

 

You want to make both too expensive for vested interests to buy and support every group, and too uncertain for vested interests to justify the outlay.

 

Under that situation, you end up either with chaos/immobilisation-which is no different to the current situation, but minus the gargantuan pilfering- or with the best policies gaining traction and approval of a majority -which is how things work in most democracies operating with a mosaic of parties-.

[hackey lad 3,996]

6 hours ago, L00b said:

Anyone else, at this stage.

 

The Monster Raving Loony party could not conceivably be, or do, worse.

So you are blowing hot air , again 

3 hours ago, L00b said:

Not Tory, and preferably not Labour either, but a mixed bag of everything which forces governance by ad hoc alliances, i.e. consensus.

 

You want to make both too expensive for vested interests to buy and support every group, and too uncertain for vested interests to justify the outlay.

 

Under that situation, you end up either with chaos/immobilisation-which is no different to the current situation, but minus the gargantuan pilfering- or with the best policies gaining traction and approval of a majority -which is how things work in most democracies operating with a mosaic of parties-.

How many successful countries are run in the way you state ?

[L00b 441]

9 hours ago, hackey lad said:

So you are blowing hot air , again 

Hardly. I’m answering your stupid question with an answer to match 😘

9 hours ago, hackey lad said:

How many successful countries are run in the way you state ?

Portugal, the Netherlands, Finland, France, Luxembourg, <…>

 

[Dromedary 166]

5 hours ago, L00b said:

Hardly. I’m answering your stupid question with an answer to match 😘

Portugal, the Netherlands, Finland, France, Luxembourg, <…>

All bar France in the above use some form of PR, however France still uses a 2 round system which is highly disproportional and artificially boosts large parties.

 

Many on here also want the UK to adopt PR as well but that will also mean another referendum being granted by Parliament and I can't see that happening anytime soon.

[melthebell 865]

On 22/06/2022 at 01:04, hackey lad said:

It’s quiet on this thread , wonder why? 

not sure what you wanted people to talk about? there wasnt much to talk about, it was quiet on the Labour front.

 

although now we have the by elections to talk about with a win by Labour.