Gender Fluid etc, Opinions?

[Halibut]

It hasn't and it isn't except in the context being discussed. That is kind of the whole point. Now read the rest of the paragraph because it hasn't affected them either.

 

Isn't that for them to decide rather than you?

[ENG601PM]

Isn't that for them to decide rather than you?

 

You really should remember what I've written before responding with that kind of virtue signalling nonsense. I'll help you out this time Cyclone.

 

Mental illness is a complex thing and I read your reply as still being a bit old fashioned and stigmatised. My approach is to accept that illnesses, physical, mental, emotional, whatever, are many and complex things and not at all taboo and hope that my enlightened approach will rub off on people who are stuck in the days of a little boy with calipers and a hole in his head collecting for the Spastics.

 

Illnesses are abnormalities though, and restoration to normality is undoubtedly what people prefer on the whole. No amount of pretending that illness is normal will stop it being taboo but the reverse is true. It's like the 12 step plan; step 1 is to recognise you have a problem, then you can start dealing with it. Show me somebody that is happy with their illness and you are showing me somebody who is abnormal.

 

there really are only two sexes and a syndrome does not create an additional sex, so sorry, there are still only two sexes plus abnormalities. I am not labelling anyone, it is just a statement of simple fact. There is no science to say otherwise that I am aware of. Career or life success does not stop them being ill, or vice versa, that's just a strawman argument.

 

Fill your boots with genders, I'm very content with that notion and will respect it within reason. Did you know that NYC recognises over 30 genders? Personally I think that's a reason to stop talking about gender, not a reason to have longer forms.

 

Identity politics - now THAT is a disease!

[Halibut]

You really should remember what I've written before responding with that kind of virtue signalling nonsense. I'll help you out this time Cyclone.

 

I'm not Cyclone, but I'm happy to let that slide.

 

So you're claiming that mentally ill people have no ability to decide what they want or how they want to be treated?

 

Is that it?

[ENG601PM]

I'm not Cyclone, but I'm happy to let that slide.

 

So you're claiming that mentally ill people have no ability to decide what they want or how they want to be treated?

 

Is that it?

 

No. The opposite really if you read it.

 

 

 

You really aren't Cyclone?

[melthebell]

No. The opposite really if you read it.

 

 

 

You really aren't Cyclone?

LOL erm hes never been Cyclone

Theres a world of difference

[marymalade]

I've never heard a valid reason why genders should have legally protected status but maybe somebody can convince me otherwise.

 

Because you can (and many many people are) be discriminated against on the basis of your gender identity. For what it's worth, I am a trans woman and I don't know of anyone who is demanding they refer to their gender as 'butch' on pain of $25k fine.

 

---------- Post added 26-01-2018 at 12:22 ----------

 

For the record, kids have far fewer hangups about gender, and gender expression than adults do. Perhaps we should take a leaf out of their book

[ENG601PM]

Because you can (and many many people are) be discriminated against on the basis of your gender identity. For what it's worth, I am a trans woman and I don't know of anyone who is demanding they refer to their gender as 'butch' on pain of $25k fine.

 

---------- Post added 26-01-2018 at 12:22 ----------

 

For the record, kids have far fewer hangups about gender, and gender expression than adults do. Perhaps we should take a leaf out of their book

 

What you've done there is to confirm there is no need for legal protection for gender to have legally protected status. That there's a list with so many fatuous gender designations with legal recourse underlines that as it's impossible to keep a competent current list of what's real. I say to take it off forms and encourage an atmosphere where it's not an issue.

 

For the record, I hate identity politics. I'm interested in people as themselves so I literally could not less care what gender anyone sees themselves as, right up the point where they weaponise it. I put it to you that my approach is much more productive than prosecuting people for not recognising somebody as Gender Blender or Femme Queen.

[ukdobby]

I'm not Cyclone, but I'm happy to let that slide.

 

So you're claiming that mentally ill people have no ability to decide what they want or how they want to be treated?

 

Is that it?

 

Somebody mentally ill shouldn't decide what they want Hitler tried it and looked what happened.

[marymalade]

What you've done there is to confirm there is no need for legal protection for gender to have legally protected status. That there's a list with so many fatuous gender designations with legal recourse underlines that as it's impossible to keep a competent current list of what's real. I say to take it off forms and encourage an atmosphere where it's not an issue.

 

For the record, I hate identity politics. I'm interested in people as themselves so I literally could not less care what gender anyone sees themselves as, right up the point where they weaponise it. I put it to you that my approach is much more productive than prosecuting people for not recognising somebody as Gender Blender or Femme Queen.

 

But how can you have legal protections if you're not legally protecting the targeted class?

 

Snopes (I know, I know, not an ideal source) have had a go at debunking that $250,000 fine claim, which kind of sounded far-fetched to me anyway. I would have included the link, but I'm not up to 5 posts yet. It says that accidentally using the wrong pronoun (and we're talking pronouns here, not what one puts on a form) is not going to result in a fine, but that if someone 'intentionally and repeatedly refuses to use an individual’s preferred pronoun would be subject to fines'.

 

Intentional and repeated are key here - we're talking targeted harassment, not a mistake.

 

I believe in treating people with kindness and respect, and so do most queer, or otherwise, people I know. I no doubt find the discourse around 'identity politics' as wearying as you do.

 

---------- Post added 26-01-2018 at 12:58 ----------

 

I used to think that until I saw the tv programme ( on tonight) about people who change gender. They really think carefully about it first, often for years, and the happiness on their faces afterwards is touching. I do wonder though, down the line, if they will regret it.

 

Regret rates for gender confirmation surgery are actually very low, I forget the actual figure but in most instances, it is social stigma, or disappointment in the outcome of the actual surgery - rather than their decision to have surgery in the first place

Edited January 26, 2018 by marymalade

[ENG601PM]

But how can you have legal protections if you're not legally protecting the targeted class?

 

By making the crime the crime, not the intent. It might sound like a subtle different but you tightly pointed out that it can be targeted harassment and I absolutely accept that.

 

However the crime is harassment and there are laws in place which I also accept may be adequate or may need tweaking, I'm not a lawyer.

 

The moment that it is harassment of an identity we're on the road to intolerance and an ever expanding list of things that are illegal. People are harassed, not identities, and certainly not groups. Snopes or not, the historic unofficial list of 2 genders M/F became an official list of 31 genders and growing fast.

 

You're a trans-woman, and I have to say without being rude, so flipping what?!?! I dare say it's of great importance to your personal identity but we all have a personal identity and we're all different in so many ways.

 

I also accept that there are foolish people who don't get your personal identity to a more or less consequential extent for you and them, but as you rightly pointed out that kids are pretty cool with it because it's not been an issue to them... yet! It becomes an issue when it becomes identity politics, and people try to make it into something that is (or should be) frankly, utterly inconsequential.

 

I'll leave you with this thought. No law ever stopped anyone being trans / whatever phobic but it will have confirmed and increased plenty of prejudices.