The Consequences of Brexit (part 2)

[Dardandec 32]

I hope the person you saw on GMB (whatever that is) enjoyed their 15 minutes of fame.

 

Good Morning Britain mate. Fifteen minutes of fame and a lifetime of regret, he was the tip of the iceberg.

[Gamston 10]

What was sold hardest as the result if leave pretty referendum, by Boris in particular, was the well known 'have your cake and eat it' option. Ie remaining in the single market but ending payments and ending free movement. This seems to have morphed into an equally implausible 'retain full access to the single market'. No one, but no one in any elected position is arguing for fast exit with WTO rules and tariffs and neither is there a mandate for it based on what was put forward by the, admittedly contradictory, leave campaign.

The only way to guarantee continued access for the UK to the single market was for the UK to remain in the EU. The UK didn't vote to Remain in the EU.

 

---------- Post added 17-12-2016 at 22:07 ----------

 

Good Morning Britain mate. Fifteen minutes of fame and a lifetime of regret, he was the tip of the iceberg.

Thanks for information. We always watch the BBC at breakfast time

[Dardandec 32]

Thanks for information. We always watch the BBC at breakfast time

 

I prefer to listen to people who say it as they see it. I can see through bias, and make my own educated decisions in life, never done me any harm.

[biotechpete 10]

The only way to guarantee continued access for the UK to the single market was for the UK to remain in the EU. The UK didn't vote to Remain in the EU.

 

The fact remains nevertheless that the leave campaign, in the main, were far from honest about that and therefore to twist the referendum result into hard Brexit on the basis that this is somehow the ''democratic will of the people' is nonsense (to put it mildly).

[SevenRivers 10]

The fact remains nevertheless that the leave campaign, in the main, were far from honest about that and therefore to twist the referendum result into hard Brexit on the basis that this is somehow the ''democratic will of the people' is nonsense (to put it mildly).

 

Politicians from both sides of the campaign are on record saying leaving the EU would mean leaving the single market, no dishonesty about it, both sides were very clear on the matter. It will therefore be a betrayal of those promises to take us out of the single market if they fail to.

 

[biotechpete 10]

Politicians from both sides of the campaign are on record saying leaving the EU would mean leaving the single market, no dishonesty about it, both sides were very clear on the matter. It will therefore be a betrayal of those promises to take us out of the single market if they fail to.

 

 

They simply weren't and it's a misleading fallacy to suggest so. There is no clear mandate on the single market.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/brussels-rejects-boris-johnson-pipe-dream-over-single-market-access

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-eu-referendum-single-market-brexit-a7104846.html

etc etc etc...

 

Edited December 17, 2016 by biotechpete
Adding links

[hush 10]

The only way to guarantee continued access for the UK to the single market was for the UK to remain in the EU. The UK didn't vote to Remain in the EU.

 

---------- Post added 17-12-2016 at 22:07 ----------

 

Thanks for information. We always watch the BBC at breakfast time

 

I was sent this list today.

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

 

 

 

The question was asked which businesses had moved to the UK from Europe because of EU grants. We couldn't think of any.

[I1L2T3 10]

Ok so as well as not wanting the democratic wishes of the referendum result being carried out, you no longer want the democratic wishes of those who voted in the 2015 General Election, being carried out. That makes you a double sore loser.

 

Democratic? No it wasn't. It was the most cynical (until Trump) political campaign the western world had ever seen. It was driven by intentional lies and mistruths. It was feeding off massive ignorance and prejudice telling people who were desperate what they wanted to hear.

 

And yes, I am talking about both sides there.

 

Wishes? Yes maybe the leave voters had certain wishes but they had no idea of the crapstorm they were voting to visit on their own lives. Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Fox are just about as far removed as possible from the reality of the lives of 60million+ people. They don't have a clue.

 

For the 60million+ their wishes won't be met. Give it less than 2 years and you will all get it. Hopefully it won't be too late.

 

---------- Post added 18-12-2016 at 00:02 ----------

 

Well said that man.

Soft Brexit is false Brexit.

 

Crazy talk

 

Hard Brexit means extreme economic dislocation in a sort period of time. Nothing less. No country has ever walked away from free trade with 80 countires overnight, and imposed trade barriers with a trading partner that accounts for nearly 50% of it's trade at the same time.

 

We will Brexit but there is only one way to do it, and it isn't your way. And I'll tell you what in two years, on here, you will admit we were right. 100% guaranteed.

 

---------- Post added 18-12-2016 at 00:04 ----------

 

Does that include the people who voted leave that really wanted to remain but didn't think leave would win? There was one on GMB the very next day roaring because he voted leave but really wanted to remain and was worried now, My heart bleeds.

 

That won't be all. Talk like that in two years and people will be queueing up to stove your head in.

 

Not me. Your fellow Brexit voters.

[biotechpete 10]

I was sent this list today.

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

 

 

 

The question was asked which businesses had moved to the UK from Europe because of EU grants. We couldn't think of any.

 

There's a website which refutes this cut and paste list point by point:

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Cadbury was bought by Kraft. Kraft shafted Cadbury. The EU had nothing to do with it.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/cadbury-closes-british-factory-to-move-101746

 

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

Yes, Jaguar Land Rover built a new factory in Slovakia. No it was not with an EU grant. And Tata is Indian so what’s that got to do with it?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/dec/11/jaguar-land-rover-factory-slovakia-uk-jobs-union

 

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

Peugeot did move production to Slovakia, but again without an EU grant. There was an investigation as to whether Slovakia improperly gave EU money to Peugeot, but nothing seems to have come of it.

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/local-news/subsidise-peugeot-jobs-axe-3983259

 

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

This is the only one that seems to have some truth in it. Ford did get a loan (not a grant) from the EU for their Turkish plant (which was already building most of the Transits), and after that their Southampton plant closed. The EU had already loaned money to Ford UK but that doesn’t appear to have saved it.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10026411.Focus_on_Ford__The___80m_EU_loan_for_Ford_s_Turkish_Transit_plant/

 

British Army’s new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Yes, the Ajax will be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel (the capitals betray the direct copying from the Mirror headline) but not at the request of the EU. Blame our own government for that one, they commissioned it.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-armys-new-fighting-vehicles-7928358

 

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

All these factories did indeed move overseas. But not with EU money. Sticking “with EU grant” on the end of a sentence doesn’t make it a fact.

 

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

What does this even mean? Hornby is still a UK company, and in fact has bought many European companies. Like many companies it moved manufacturing to China, but that’s nothing to do with the EU.

 

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Yes ICI was bought by AkzoNobel, but not with EU money. I can find no evidence that factories were closed at the time. Since then, AkzoNobel has closed a couple of plants because it has built a new one in Gateshead.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/56d5da5c-a7ea-11e0-afc2-00144feabdc0.html

 

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

Stefano Pessina isn’t a company, he’s a person. He bought out his own company, Alliance Boots, in 2007, and is now in charge of Walgreen Boots Alliance, formed in 2012. Boots was not bought with EU money. And although they are headquartered in Switzerland to avoid tax, their UK operations are firmly based here and they are a major UK employer.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2007/jun/21/privateequity

 

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU ‘regeneration’ grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

I can’t even find out where this story originated. If you know, please enlighten me! JDSU was an American company; I have no idea where this Dutch element crept in. If they’d left us with a pollution nightmare and raided the pensions I would have thought it would be at least mentioned on their Wikipedia page, under “Controversies” or something….

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JDSU

 

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Yes, most of this is true or mostly true, I’m starting to lose the will to check. But what does any of that have to do with the EU? They didn’t make our companies sell to the Spanish and French and Germans, these things just happen. It’s called capitalism, and UK companies buy out European companies and close down their factories too. And it’s our government who handed Hinckley Point over to the French and Chinese.

 

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it’s Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

Yes… except the EU grants bit. Just can’t find any evidence of that.

 

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

I’m a UK and European patent attorney. Trust me, this statement doesn’t even make sense. Passed by whom, passed how?

**EDIT** I think I worked this one out. Although I can’t make the numbers fit with any recent statistics, it must mean “granted”. Some number of UK patents have been granted to foreign companies. Well yes, of course, that’s how the patent system works. Ideally, you get a patent wherever you are going to sell your product. You don’t have to be a native of that country to get it. UK companies get patents in foreign countries too, that’s how it works.

 

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn’t paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc.,

There’s plenty of UK technology companies. In my job I see them come and go and come and go… it’s just the way things are. Maybe they aren’t the old fashioned build-things-in-a-factory companies, but they’re still technology companies. Shazam, for example.

 

http://ilovetheeu.co.uk/trade/no-the-eu-does-not-fund-companies-to-move-jobs-out-of-the-uk/

 

Isn't cutting and pasting content without acknowledging a source against forum rules?

[tinfoilhat 11]

I was sent this list today.

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

 

 

 

The question was asked which businesses had moved to the UK from Europe because of EU grants. We couldn't think of any.

 

One obvious point on that list for me: the"catastrophic failure of Chinese steel" in nuclear facilities. That's news, where ever it happens, failure of a nuclear plant. Can you post a quick link, or indeed links of these failures?

[I1L2T3 10]

I was sent this list today.

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

 

 

 

The question was asked which businesses had moved to the UK from Europe because of EU grants. We couldn't think of any.

 

That is more a result of globalisation than the EU. Granted the EU is an agent of globalisation but it is very far from the unbridled globalisation that the Extremist Brexit leaders want.

[biotechpete 10]

Also the royal society stats show 18% of EU FP7 funding alone goes to businesses, mostly SMEs.