Micro Hydro Scheme

[1978]

Pumped storage systems such as Dinorwic are a net consumer of electricity, not a net producer. For them to work they need more generation capacity to be available elsewhere. So they will not reduce any requirement for nuclear generation.

 

Nuclear and hydro share a common advantage in that they are capable of being switched on and off very quickly to meet surges in demand.

 

There is no absolute requirement for nuclear power, any more than for any other form of generation. The more power we generate from one source the less we may need to generate from the others.

 

A pumped system helps even out peaks and troughs in demand. On a windy night water may effectively be being pumped up with electricity from off shore wind farms. That may depend on how the distribution grid is managed.

[Cyclone]

Generation

the production or creation of something.

 

Pumped storage is not a net producer of power, thus it generates nothing unless you disingenuously consider only half the cycle.

 

---------- Post added 05-03-2016 at 08:53 ----------

 

Nuclear and hydro share a common advantage in that they are capable of being switched on and off very quickly to meet surges in demand.

 

There is no absolute requirement for nuclear power, any more than for any other form of generation. The more power we generate from one source the less we may need to generate from the others.

 

A pumped system helps even out peaks and troughs in demand. On a windy night water may effectively be being pumped up with electricity from off shore wind farms. That may depend on how the distribution grid is managed.

 

A pumped system doesn't generate any power though.

 

If you filled the country with pumped storage plants you would have a net output of 0 watts.

You need power generation before the pumped storage becomes of any use.

 

And nuclear is the best option for generation at the moment.

 

---------- Post added 05-03-2016 at 08:55 ----------

 

To reiterate, the pumped storage scheme stores potential energy in the form of water. It doesn't store "Charge" like a battery or capacitor-of course there are losses in the system. I never said there wasn't.

 

A battery stores potential energy in the form of chemical bonds... It's as much a generator as a pumped storage plant.

A capacitor on the other hand DOES actually store charge, directly, lots of electrons stuffed inside it. It's still not a generator though.

[petemcewan]

Flexo,

 

I apologise. I misdirected a post to you which should have gone to SgtKate. I got excited and pressed the wrong keys on the chrome. Good job I'm not pressing the wrong button in the control room of a Nuclear power plant .

[Eater Sundae]

Nuclear and hydro share a common advantage in that they are capable of being switched on and off very quickly to meet surges in demand.

 

There is no absolute requirement for nuclear power, any more than for any other form of generation. The more power we generate from one source the less we may need to generate from the others.

 

A pumped system helps even out peaks and troughs in demand. On a windy night water may effectively be being pumped up with electricity from off shore wind farms. That may depend on how the distribution grid is managed.

 

Surely nuclear cannot be switched on and off at will.

 

My reference to nuclear was because the OP appeared to claim that pumped storage systems would reduce the need for nuclear, which it clearly wouldn't. The use of alternative forms of net generation could be used to reduce nuclear generation (assuming we want to) but a net consumer such as pumped storage wouldn't

Edited March 5, 2016 by Eater Sundae

[1978]

My previous post was, of course, incorrect. Nuclear power is best for base load as it can't be quickly switched on and off. That's where pumped hydro acts as a 'battery' to take excess power off peak, and provide extra during the times it's needed. The two go well together, which is why the Dinorwic scheme went ahead.

 

The topic is about micro hydro schemes. Little local efforts, like those by Derwent Hydro and others. It will take a lot of them to generate even 5% of current needs, but every little helps.

[Annie Bynnol]

There is a case for saying every little does not help.

 

Loading a grid system with lots of low power assets is expensive in infrastructure, monitoring and maintenance and contributes to instability and inefficiency.

 

Privately owned grid systems are concerned/refusing to take on connections to renewable sources.

The contribution that these local sources make is swamped by the costs to the grid.

The grid will need updating to cope and so will be asking HMG to pay.

 

In the future there is no guarantee that the power generated in micro schemes will be taken by the grid. This includes solar panels on roofs. The deals are through private companies.

 

There is also the physics of transmitting power from places where energy sources are abundant to areas of demand.

 

To avoid this Micro schemes need to focus and cost on locally supplied demand.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Annie Bynnol

[Flexo]

There is a case for saying every little does not help.

 

Loading a grid system with lots of low power assets is expensive in infrastructure, monitoring and maintenance and contributes to instability and inefficiency.

 

It's just the opposite of the consumption though, innit? There's lots of low power villages etc dotted all around.

 

As for monitoring, they plan to install a spy in every home to record your electricity use by the minute and report it back to some central database. Monitoring the output of a much smaller number of generators is a much easier problem to solve.

[petemcewan]

Pumped storage is not a net producer of power, thus it generates nothing unless you disingenuously consider only half the cycle.

 

---------- Post added 05-03-2016 at 08:53 ----------

 

 

A pumped system doesn't generate any power though.

 

If you filled the country with pumped storage plants you would have a net output of 0 watts.

You need power generation before the pumped storage becomes of any use.

 

And nuclear is the best option for generation at the moment.

 

 

 

A pumped system doesn't generate any power though.

 

If you filled the country with pumped storage plants you would have a net output of 0 watts.

You need power generation before the pumped storage becomes of any use.

 

And nuclear is the best option for generation at the moment.

 

 

 

A battery stores potential energy in the form of chemical bonds... It's as much a generator as a pumped storage plant.

A capacitor on the other hand DOES actually store charge, directly, lots of electrons stuffed inside it. It's still not a generator though.

 

Quite right about batteries and capacitors. They both can be considered as "seats of EMF ". You know how a battery works as a means of converting chemical energy into electrical energy. All well and good. The energy stored in a capacitor is recoverable into some other form if the capacitor is discharged, Thus unlike a resistor a capacitor is considered as a "seat of EMF (Unit, the Volt) . No disagreement with you on that. Consult with the Hydro Equipment Association on Pumped Storage. The Laws of Electromagnetic Induction-simplified- State, that if a conductor is moved at right angles to a magnetic field an EMF is induced in the conductor. That's what is happening in the synchronous generator attached to the turbine-simple. What some people sem to be confused about in this thread is the STORAGE, and its misuse in some sources. It's the water that is stored ready for realise to turn an alternator. Its not electricity ,(charged particles) that's stored nor is it power. The pool is not a pool of Watts ,it's water.See, if you know about a subject you can determine when a terms is misused. The common misconception by laypeople is they think there's a pool of electricity stored up in the mountain. Just like some people think that electricity leaks out of their socket outlet and spills on the ground when they are not looking. The Hydro Equipment Association agree with me-not you. And they know a thing or two about a thing or two when it comes to hydro electricity schemes.

Now have a go at describing Micro Hydro schemes, their advantages and disadvantages and I will read your stuff with interest. The Michel Banki Cross Flow Turbine is a good place to start. You may find it interesting. I'll start you off. The MBCT utilises two points at which the flow exerts a turning moment. A very efficient system.

 

A note for you. If you want to look it up . The instantaneous maximum induced EMF = 2BLUN volts.

Edited March 5, 2016 by petemcewan

[Annie Bynnol]

It's just the opposite of the consumption though, innit? There's lots of low power villages etc dotted all around.

 

As for monitoring, they plan to install a spy in every home to record your electricity use by the minute and report it back to some central database. Monitoring the output of a much smaller number of generators is a much easier problem to solve.

 

To supply lots of "low power villages" costs exponentially more than supplying a city with the same number of people.

Collecting many power sources costs far, far more than collecting from a large generator. In fact the unstable and variable nature of these low grade sources makes our old grid system unstable and the cost of maintaining stability has led to grid owners refusing to allow a connection to new installations until who pays is sorted.

Presently this does not apply to domestic solar production but it will unless a smarter system is paid for.

 

The consumer will be subsidizing production and distribution whilst cheaper options idle.

[apelike]

The energy stored in a capacitor is recoverable into some other form if the capacitor is discharged,

 

No, it is recovered as electrical energy as that is what charged it.

 

The common misconception by laypeople is they think there's a pool of electricity stored up in the mountain. Just like some people think that electricity leaks out of their socket outlet and spills on the ground when they are not looking.

 

Common misconception? Now I know you are just having a laugh..

 

Now have a go at describing Micro Hydro schemes, their advantages and disadvantages and I will read your stuff with interest.

 

Advantages = as the name implies they are small scale and produce small amounts of electricity compared to other Hydro systems.

 

Disadvantages = as above they are small scale, are only practical in some circumstance, initially not very cost effective.

 

A note for you. If you want to look it up . The instantaneous maximum induced EMF = 2BLUN volts.

 

And that means exactly what when applied to micro hydro schemes?