The Consequences of Brexit [part 4]

[Carlinate 10]

I'm insinuating that there cannot be any bilateral deal about cross-border trade (or, for that matter, about any other domain in which the EU has competence) between a brexited, third party state UK and any individual EU member state (which is what Puggie claimed will happen).

 

Any deal negotiated with 'one' EU state is one negotiated with all of them, and necessarily through the EU.

 

I thought the reciprocal aspect of this (i.e. the impossibility for an EU member state of negotiating its own ('bilateral') deals with third party states) was a long-settled, most-publicised, major bugbear of the Leavers...so I really didn't think I'd have to pick up a Leaver about it.

 

Hence my being compelled to ask Puggie if he is familiar with how the EU works.

 

I mean, this is really basic stuff.

 

Yes, I know, I was trying to be funny, and obviously failing! Should have put a smiley

 

The problem with Brexiteers is that they got us into this mess by not thinking things through and relying on jingoistic yearnings, not supported by facts, to decide which way to vote.

 

It is now obvious to anyone paying attention that the Remainers were right and that this whole thing is going pear shaped to the countries detriment.

 

They can't admit that, so it's all the fault of the Remainers for not being patriotic enough and the EU for wanting to punish us.

 

The fact that it is their fault for not applying logic in their decision making and our politicians fault for being less than competent can't be admitted to because it makes them look foolish.

 

Which is what they were and still are.

[nightrider 13]

Yes, I know, I was trying to be funny, and obviously failing! Should have put a smiley

 

The problem with Brexiteers is that they got us into this mess by not thinking things through and relying on jingoistic yearnings, not supported by facts, to decide which way to vote.

 

 

They still are not thinking things through properly:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-damien-greene-nhs-cancer-patients-brexit-uk-quit-euratom-eu-agency-mps-european-union-a7837356.html

 

How hard can it be to just research some facts before opening your mouth?!

[Lord Rex 10]

The sore Brexit losers can't seem to take on board that the decision to leave the EU is for our long term future. The decision to leave was a decisive choice. Half measures are not forceful decisions and if they are made regarding Brexit, then they are merely being made to pacify the white feather brigade. There was no wrong or correct decision to make on the referendum ballot paper.

[Carlinate 10]

The sore Brexit losers can't seem to take on board that the decision to leave the EU is for our long term future. The decision to leave was a decisive choice. Half measures are not forceful decisions and if they are made regarding Brexit, then they are merely being made to pacify the white feather brigade. There was no wrong or correct decision to make on the referendum ballot paper.

 

The delusional Brexiteers can't seem to take on board what is actually happening, as opposed to what in their ill thought out imaginings they thought was going to happen.

 

" our long term future" ?

 

You haven't a clue about our long term future.

 

If you think that leaving the most successful Trade Bloc in the World and setting off on our own under the guidance of a group of second and third rate politicians was going to be good for our future you need your bumps felt.

 

Have a listen to the views of a man who in addition to being a politician actually had a proper job for a number of years in the real world as Chief Economist for Royal Dutch Shell.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjK5uPwhIbVAhUMIMAKHboXCdAQFghaMAc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fav%2Fuk-politics-40542525%2Fvince-cable-brexit-might-never-happen&usg=AFQjCNHoYDk7l-cC3UULyA9PNGTrlHUrJg

 

As for being unpatriotic it is you Brexiteers that are the ones damaging Britain's status in the world.

 

Take a look at the opinion of a former Tory Foreign Secretary.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjGiPG5hobVAhWqB8AKHeUYB3cQFggtMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk%2Fpolitics%2Fbrexit-william-hague-damage-britains-influence-world-stage-former-foreign-secretary-eu-a7826761.html&usg=AFQjCNFnLWcxHNU3JM2_Ro40apLt-1zGyg

 

It is you that is the traitor here, of that there is no doubt.

 

You are in the same category as that other faux aristocrat Lord Haw Haw, an enemy of the country!

[ukdobby 225]

We will not get a good deal from the EU.

[L00b 441]

We will not get a good deal from the EU.

If on the negotiation's timescale (ending 1st April 2019), you'll get the best deal which the EU is willing to give to a third party country on such a short timescale.

 

If on an extended timescale (transitional period, e.g. with the UK going EEA by way of 'interim' pre-exit...if the UK joins the EFTA first and if Norway doesn't block its accession to the EEA), you'll get the best deal which the EU is willing to give to a third party country. See Korea, Canada, Japan by way of real-life examples.

 

Whether the deal is 'good' for the UK or not, well...that's up to your government and the country as a whole, and only time will tell.

 

And in this last respect, the UK still has a Himalaya of domestic work ahead, over and about which the EU has zero influence or liability howsoever. Which should be of concern to all, whether pro- or anti-Brexit regardless.

 

Such as the UK getting its customs procedures and system in order (see my earlier link), import/export/cross-border taxation revised, tariff levels set, EMA replacement setup and operational, EURATOM replacement setup and operational, Open Skies-compatible agency and agreement in place, so many standards authorities ready and operational to certify all UK goods for export,

etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc.

 

And I can't help notice that the UK government has yet to tender for associated and relevant ICT projects. With 18 months to go or so. Make of that what you will.

 

...tic-toc-tic-toc-tic-toc...

Edited July 13, 2017 by L00b

[Harrystottle 10]

Yes but is that the right way? Importing cheaper staff rather than trying to upskill our own is surely extreme short-termism? Unless we are taking on the role of trying to fix the entire world, which while highly laudable I don't think we can do it solo!

 

Imo it is absolutely the wrong way and massively short term thinking. We are denying our own people possible careers in medicine and poachig much needed medical staff from poorer nations.

 

But it is happening all the time.

[L00b 441]

Imo it is absolutely the wrong way and massively short term thinking. We are denying our own people possible careers in medicine and poachig much needed medical staff from poorer nations.

 

But it is happening all the time.

The NHS staffs and works to a budget, balancing its resources to try and meet its mission requirements, current and forecast. So, well, rock, hard place.

 

Until and unless people pay more taxes, and the government gives more tax money to the NHS for training and hiring more domestic talent.

 

Note that this is a dual and cumulative condition, since the first (people pay more tax) does not automatically result in the second (the government gives more tax money to the NHS).

 

Now, if you want better healthcare education, opportunities and careers for British citizens (accessorily, within the above NHS balancing act, to help stop depriving those poor foreigners from their own healthcare practitioners), then some joined-up thinking is needed between the Department for Health and the Department for Education.

 

Maybe you can just vote for whichever party puts that initiative on their manifesto?

 

In the meantime however, fear not: the current NHS crisis is a problem that will slowly solve itself through the age pyramid dynamics, as ever more baby boomers start pushing up daisies. Chronic underperformance by the NHS through enduring budgetary restrictions are likely to accelerate the solution, so that's bonus

[I1L2T3 10]

The saddest thing about all this is that a very cogent argument for Brexit was made by the left, and in many ways it is hard to argue with some of it. The case for Brexit was hijacked by the right, and it is so poorly constructed relying on countless lies, fallacies, prejudice and misinformation.

 

Here is a view from the left and some home truths about the EU:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/16/brexit-eu-referendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory

[sgtkate 10]

The saddest thing about all this is that a very cogent argument for Brexit was made by the left, and in many ways it is hard to argue with some of it. The case for Brexit was hijacked by the right, and it is so poorly constructed relying on countless lies, fallacies, prejudice and misinformation.

 

Here is a view from the left and some home truths about the EU:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/16/brexit-eu-referendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory

 

As a leftie, I have said before on here that I was close to voting to leave the EU, as I have some real concerns about the growth of right wing nationalism in Europe and I don't want to be a part of that. There is a chance the EU will lurch to the right as a result and if that happened I'd want us out, massively.

 

Equally the principle of freedom of movement within the EU and Schengen is about businesses having access to cheap and available workers and is any benefits for individuals is pure coincidence. Anything that pushes a business agenda over people isn't something I'm keen on.

 

So ironically given how the Brexit argument seems to have been hijacked by the right, I'm only a partial fan of it. I voted to remain not because I love the EU but because for the time being I think the harm to PEOPLE would be far greater by us leaving than staying and nothing has just changed my view in the slightest.

[I1L2T3 10]

As a leftie, I have said before on here that I was close to voting to leave the EU, as I have some real concerns about the growth of right wing nationalism in Europe and I don't want to be a part of that. There is a chance the EU will lurch to the right as a result and if that happened I'd want us out, massively.

 

Equally the principle of freedom of movement within the EU and Schengen is about businesses having access to cheap and available workers and is any benefits for individuals is pure coincidence. Anything that pushes a business agenda over people isn't something I'm keen on.

 

So ironically given how the Brexit argument seems to have been hijacked by the right, I'm only a partial fan of it. I voted to remain not because I love the EU but because for the time being I think the harm to PEOPLE would be far greater by us leaving than staying and nothing has just changed my view in the slightest.

 

I was the same. For me it was the treatment of smaller countries like Greece by the core. The treatment meted out basically on behalf the Germans was utterly gobsmacking. Our failure to even stand up for Greece made me more angry again. Was close to voting leave but in the end couldn't buy in to the post-Brexit future that Farage and Fox etc... were peddling. I'm so glad I voted remain because while there is a long-term case for leaving we are not ready. Just so not ready.

[melthebell 864]

hahaha Lord Rex's comments solidify the opinions that brexit "eers" and the right wing of thinking are so far up their own arse, no thought for anybody elses views, lives just theirs. with no empathy in the slightest.