The end of the Labour party

[harvey19 541]

The sad thing is that Mr. Corbyn is probably the truest Labour leader the party has had for many years.

I think Labour lost support years ago especially when Mr. Brown made his "Bigot" remark.

[alchresearch 215]

Tories gain Copeland, which they were always going to do, but Labour hang on to Stoke in the face of a totally rubbish UKIP challenge that's shown everybody once and for all what a bunch of clueless amateurs they are.

 

the Tories came only just behind UKIP in Stoke, they barely campaigned in the seat at all, and I reckon they could have won Stoke if they'd have really made an effort. That really would have been a 'historic' Tory victory.

 

As I said earlier in the Paul Nuttall thread, locals in Stoke weren't impressed with a "parachuted" candidate who knew nothing about local issues.

 

Unlike the Zac Goldsmith by-election, which was totally about Brexit, that wasn't the case here.

[Ridgewalk 103]

I am left a bit puzzled this morning. I am and probably always will be staunch supporter of Corbyn and what he stands for, but it appears that his message isn't getting through to people that Labour need if they are to mount a genuine threat at the next GE. So do I want Labour to stick with Corbyn and risk getting a kicking at the next GE but hold true to my and what I believe after Labour's core ethics, or do Labour change leader for a more 'acceptable' figure but by doing so ditch some of the key Labour values?

 

More ethics with less power or less ethics with more power. What a crap decision.

 

Catch 22. We are up against the full panoply of media bias. If we had a balanced Media, Labour under Corbyn would have a better chance. The Tabloids, and the left liberal media eg Guardian, are all anti Corbyn. Corbyn is too much for the liberal intelligentsia. A look at the backgrounds ofmany BBC and Guardian journos will show you what a narrow strata of opinions and class they represent

[alchresearch 215]

Corbyn was, is and always will be too left wing and "1980s" for half the Labour voters.

 

The alternatives are too "Tory lite / New Labour" for the other half.

 

Until they find someone who can appeal to both, Labour will continue to flounder. And there sadly isn't anyone. Eagle or Chuka Umunna was probably the best chance.

[Jacktari 10]

The sad thing is that Mr. Corbyn is probably the truest Labour leader the party has had for many years.

I think Labour lost support years ago especially when Mr. Brown made his "Bigot" remark.

 

It was true what he said though.

I thought the woman was a bigot as well.

[sgtkate 10]

Corbyn was, is and always will be too left wing and "1980s" for half the Labour voters.

 

The alternatives are too "Tory lite / New Labour" for the other half.

 

Until they find someone who can appeal to both, Labour will continue to flounder. And there sadly isn't anyone. Eagle or Chuka Umunna was probably the best chance.

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Somehow the Tories are managing to walk that line, but Labour have a big problem in that the 'working classes' are such a diverse group that it's always going to be hard to find some policies that sit well with all of them. I do also think that perhaps people like me, i.e. champagne socialists!, are a part of the problem. At the moment I think a lot of people are put off voting for Corbyn because they see middle class people supporting him and almost assume that he can't be for them. I hope that makes some sense. To be honest, I'm not even certain Corbyn is a good fit for Labour, nearly all of his policies now align with the Greens and perhaps it would have been better if Labour had split, with the more left wing half joining the Greens and the more right wing half forming their own party? At moment we have the Tories and then almost nothing. Any government without opposition is dangerous.

[Robin-H 11]

It was true what he said though.

I thought the woman was a bigot as well.

 

The fact that you agree with Brown doesn't make his statement true tho does it?

 

You can share the same opinion as him, as I'm sure do many other people, but that does nothing to actually validate his original statement.

[harvey19 541]

It was true what he said though.

I thought the woman was a bigot as well.

 

It was not true what he said, it was one of Labour's traditional voters voicing her legitimate concerns.

What it showed was how far the gap was between the "new" Labour Party and it's traditional voters.

 

You may find last night's tv programme by Trevor Philips about political correctness interesting.

Edited February 24, 2017 by harvey19

[El Cid 222]

The alternatives are too "Tory lite / New Labour" for the other half.

 

Until they find someone who can appeal to both, Labour will continue to flounder. And there sadly isn't anyone. Eagle or Chuka Umunna was probably the best chance.

 

The Tories won a seat from Labour whilst at the same time we have a poorly funded NHS, care homes closing, increasing council tax, prisoners escaping and poorly performing, more homeless, looming inflation and missed immigration targets.

The only party to have gained votes in the last 5 Westminster byelections is the Liberal Democrats; the party was badly punished in 2015 for Tory policies.

[Jacktari 10]

Corbyn was, is and always will be too left wing and "1980s" for half the Labour voters.

 

The alternatives are too "Tory lite / New Labour" for the other half.

 

Until they find someone who can appeal to both, Labour will continue to flounder. And there sadly isn't anyone. Eagle or Chuka Umunna was probably the best chance.

 

They should take a leaf out of the Tories book, and rave on about past glories.

 

It doesn't matter who leads the Tories, as they all still think it is Margaret Thatcher.

 

The Labour party ought to trick everyone into believing Harold Wilson is the defacto leader.

 

They would romp home.

[alchresearch 215]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Somehow the Tories are managing to walk that line, but Labour have a big problem in that the 'working classes' are such a diverse group that it's always going to be hard to find some policies that sit well with all of them. I do also think that perhaps people like me, i.e. champagne socialists!, are a part of the problem.

 

You're spot on. The Tories had a similar issue in the past with their "blue rinse brigade" stereotyping the view of a typical Tory voter, but I think they're a dying breed (literally!), and modern Tory voters are more moderate and from all walks of life.

 

Labour is stupid to alienate the people it won over back in 1997, they've not gone anywhere (I'm not ashamed to say that includes me), and early New Labour is still a viable option.

 

Remember when Scargill thought at the time Labour was going too "Tory" and launched Socialist Labour? That died a death, but as time went on and Blair and Brown's behaviour and policies turned New Labour into something quite different, and the likes of them, Ed Balls, Burnham, Miliband and so on are what's turned people off them. Perhaps the way they handled the recession and the Gulf war is part of that.

 

As for the Tories winning Copeland, it was hardly a landslide, so they shouldn't rest on their laurels and blame Corbyn:

 

Trudy Harrison won with 13,748 votes to Labour's Gillian Troughton's 11,601. It was close in 2015 too:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copeland_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Elections_in_the_2010s

 

And those figures back up what El Cid says about the Lib Dems being punished.

Edited February 24, 2017 by alchresearch

[Jacktari 10]

It was probably a vote against labour, than a vote for the tories.

 

But that area was a working class enclave in the old days wasn't it?

 

Workington was a coal mining town, if I remember from my geography at school.

Those days are over, and it is probably just full of hotels and holiday homes these days.

 

The people rather than forming their own opinions will be just following the popular press's opinions, as does the majority of the country.