Fixed penalty notice for term time holidays

[aliceBB]

I haven't seen one like that in the press.

 

Nor have I, although that doesn't that necessarily mean it has never happened.

 

In my experience (secondary school form tutor for 30 years), lower than average attendance (due to illness, 'appointments' and truancy) tended to be associated with additional absence for family holidays. As I've said before, the only valid reasons for missing secondary school should be illness and bereavement. Parents who think it's acceptable to take their kids out on holiday in their exam years tended to have (it seems) fewer scruples (than other parents) about letting children miss school because they 'missed the bus' (all day!), they 'had a dental check-up' (why not after school?), they had to babysit a younger sibling, or even more blatantly, 'I needed to take him Christmas shopping/to get some new trainers and it's always too crowded at the weekend'!! Words failed me with that one.

 

I cannot recall any kids whose attendance was otherwise perfect who were then taken out on holiday.

Edited January 29, 2014 by aliceBB

[ivanava]

Nor have I, although that doesn't that necessarily mean it has never happened.

 

In my experience (secondary school form tutor for 30 years), lower than average attendance (due to illness, 'appointments' and truancy) tended to be associated with additional absence for family holidays. As I've said before, the only valid reasons for missing secondary school should be illness and bereavement. Parents who think it's acceptable to take their kids out on holiday in their exam years tend (it seemed) to have fewer scruples (than other parents) about letting them stay away because they 'missed the bus' (all day!), they 'had a dental check-up' (why not after school?), they had to babysit a younger sibling, or even more blatantly, 'I needed to take him Christmas shopping/to get some new trainers and it's always too crowded at the weekend'!! Words failed me with that one.

 

I cannot recall any kids whose attendance was otherwise perfect who were then taken out on holiday.

 

My kids had close to 100% attendance every year and they were rarely off sick, but we did go on a two week holiday in February every year, meaning they had an extra weeks holiday.

 

The kids that were rarely at school tended to be disruptive, and the best place for them was at home.

Edited January 29, 2014 by ivanava

[mort]

If you cannot remain civil and refrain from bickering i will be happy to issue suspensions

[monkey104]

I asked a civil question ie. who is the comment aimed at?

A perfectly acceptable question that should have required a polite answer, not just deleting without question.

[dosxuk]

secondary school form tutor for 30 years

 

Ah, that puts your comments on how teachers are the only people able to educate children into context.

 

You sound exactly like the teachers I used to hate - there to teach the syllabus, not to educate. Do you use the words "that's not important right now as you won't be asked questions on that in your exams" a lot by any chance?

 

I cannot recall any kids whose attendance was otherwise perfect who were then taken out on holiday.

 

Strange, I know several. All of which have gone on to have above average academic results and good careers.

[francypants]

 

I cannot recall any kids whose attendance was otherwise perfect who were then taken out on holiday.

 

[quote=dosxuk;1030021

 

 

 

Strange, I know several. All of which have gone on to have above average academic results and good careers.

 

 

 

Me too, I know of lots who were taken out of school for holidays and have gone on to have thriving careers. We did it and our daughter is now a teacher

and our son is an I.T. manager, so I can't say it did them much harm.

[aliceBB]

Ah, that puts your comments on how teachers are the only people able to educate children into context.

I suggest that you go back and read my posts more carefully, then. I have never claimed that teachers are the only people able to educate children, since I do not believe they are. I do however believe that they are probably the best chance for pupils who lack the ability or motivation to learn autonomously and whose parents are unable or unwilling to teach them the syllabi they need to follow in order to pass public examinations. A child could have a fascinating education on a year's round the world trek, but without formal teaching he or she would be unlikely to do justice to his ability at GCSE. Would you disagree?

 

You sound exactly like the teachers I used to hate - there to teach the syllabus, not to educate. Do you use the words "that's not important right now as you won't be asked questions on that in your exams" a lot by any chance?

Again, please don't misrepresent me and don't shoot the messenger. First, no I don't use those words now (as I have retired from teaching), nor did I say them when I was a teacher. My reference to the pressures of exam syllabi and exam results (which, I agree, are not the same thing as education) were simply to explain why teachers and school heads get frustrated by parents removing their kids to go on holiday. (It's rather like a health professional working hard with you to help you lose weight, only to find that you have ignored their advice and been stuffing doughnuts on the sly every day).

 

Strange, I know several. All of which have gone on to have above average academic results and good careers.

It is always possible to find anecdotal exceptions to trends.You say you knew several individuals; I was telling you what I observed from 30 years experience of being a form tutor. Spot the difference.

[dosxuk]

I suggest that you go back and read my posts more carefully, then. I have never claimed that teachers are the only people able to educate children, since I do not believe they are. I do however believe that they are probably the best chance for pupils who lack the ability or motivation to learn autonomously and whose parents are unable or unwilling to teach them the syllabi they need to follow in order to pass public examinations.

 

It's comments like the following which led me to that conclusion:

 

What you will find, in fact, is that whereas a field trip or visit to somewhere of historical or geographical interest can be fantastic for consolidating knowledge and ideas gained in class, the trip in itself, especially if unstructured, cannot replace what is learnt in class, where the pupil has the benefit of various interactive resources, not least the teacher.

 

Right, things happening outside of school, while fantastic for supplementing what the teachers have taught, unless it's been structured by a teacher, can't teach the pupils anything that the teacher couldn't.

 

A child could have a fascinating education on a year's round the world trek, but without formal teaching he or she would be unlikely to do justice to his ability at GCSE. Would you disagree?

 

Quite happily. A child, on a year long round the world trek, returning immediately for their GCSEs, would be such an exceptional case that the results are completely unpredictable. They could do fantastically after spending the year with various different experts, working from the syllabus, or they could fail completely, or they could even not bother with the exams.

 

We're not talking about people missing an entire year's worth of schooling, we're talking about under 14's missing a couple of weeks, maximum, or under 18's missing the odd day.

 

Again, please don't misrepresent me and don't shoot the messenger.

 

I'm not misrepresenting you, I'm giving you my opinion on some of the teachers I had, who you appear to share attributes with.

 

First, no I don't use those words now (as I have retired from teaching), nor did I say them when I was a teacher.

 

Good, but it's something I've certainly heard many times.

 

(It's rather like a health professional working hard with you to help you lose weight, only to find that you have ignored their advice and been stuffing doughnuts on the sly every day).

 

Actually, you're behaving more like the health professional who's berating everyone for letting someone eat a slice of cake on their wedding day.

 

It is always possible to find anecdotal exceptions to trends.You say you knew several individuals; I was telling you what I observed from 30 years experience of being a form tutor. Spot the difference.

 

30 years of experience, and you didn't have one student who's only missed lessons in a single year was to go on a holiday? I find that astonishing, and quite frankly, unbelievable.

 

Anyway, I'm not going to continue this debate. As we clearly fundamentally disagree on the benefits (or otherwise) that foreign travel can give children, I shall leave you to your views and I shall continue to believe the Government is totally wrong with their one-size-fits-all approach to education.

[aliceBB]

 

Anyway, I'm not going to continue this debate. As we clearly fundamentally disagree on the benefits (or otherwise) that foreign travel can give children, I shall leave you to your views and I shall continue to believe the Government is totally wrong with their one-size-fits-all approach to education.

 

Wrong again.I taught MFL (French and Spanish) as well as English, and I took students on many exchange visits abroad. I believe strongly in the many benefits of foreign travel (as long as it involves a positive attitude and interaction with the people in the places you travel to).

 

I do not think we disagree on as much as you are determined to think we do, in the end. Most teachers would love to be able to educate children rather than make them jump through hoops to pass exams, which is fundamentally soul destroying and uncreative. Most teachers did not come into teaching to be circus ringmasters (in fact, many teachers, including me, have left the profession partly or wholly for this reason).

 

The situation has arisen because of the way successive governments have insisted that 'standards' rise, for which everything must be quantifiable and because parents consequently have been brainwashed into thinking that exam league tables are the be all and end all. So teachers come under attack from all sides to produce better and better exam grades, which are eminently measurable. Real education is not so pin- downable and on that I think we agree.

 

So please don't assume anything about the kind of teacher I am/was. You know nothing about me, really, and your jumping to conclusions contribute nothing to the debate. Choose to reject my observations and experience if you wish, but please read what I say and don't just 'assume' things.

Edited January 30, 2014 by aliceBB

[ivanava]

It is always possible to find anecdotal exceptions to trends.You say you knew several individuals; I was telling you what I observed from 30 years experience of being a form tutor. Spot the difference.

 

Your opinion is also based on anecdotal evidence unless you can produce some research to back up your claims. After all you didn't teach every child in every school, you will have met an insignificant percentage of children and all from the same area.