If you were American, would you support greater gun control in the US?

[mort]

You can either start debating in a civil and adult way or i can issue bans. Your choice.

[Old Tom]

That is not evidence, it is your opinion. You have failed to support your claim with evidence as requested.

 

Oh dear. Let me ask you a question then.

 

I think we can agree that being a nutter isn't confined to the USA and a motivated psychopath like the one who hit the American school could just as easily target a UK school.

 

He can arm himself with pump action shotguns, machetes and petrol bombs without problem. He picks his time and opens up on the kids in a South Yorkshire school. Petrol bombs with oil on the stairways and the sprinklers activated.

 

As you said South Yorkshire has 4 armed response vehicles to cover the 1500 square kilometres of South Yorkshire. So with shift changes and other incidents its not difficult to imagine that the nearest team is 20 miles away.

 

Lets assume its a nice day at rush hour and the gritters have been out on the major roads. Run us by the sequence of events and times from the first shot and someone shouting call the police to an armed response officer ending the carnage.

I'm assuming the copper got up that day not intending to get shot where as the nutter probably didn't.

[Lotusflower]

Oh dear. Let me ask you a question then.

 

I think we can agree that being a nutter isn't confined to the USA and a motivated psychopath like the one who hit the American school could just as easily target a UK school.

 

He can arm himself with pump action shotguns, machetes and petrol bombs without problem. He picks his time and opens up on the kids in a South Yorkshire school. Petrol bombs with oil on the stairways and the sprinklers activated.

 

As you said South Yorkshire has 4 armed response vehicles to cover the 1500 square kilometres of South Yorkshire. So with shift changes and other incidents its not difficult to imagine that the nearest team is 20 miles away.

 

Lets assume its a nice day at rush hour and the gritters have been out on the major roads. Run us by the sequence of events and times from the first shot and someone shouting call the police to an armed response officer ending the carnage.

I'm assuming the copper got up that day not intending to get shot where as the nutter probably didn't.

 

Re my bold.

Wasteful councils again perchance?

[puisseguin]

I suppose the question is would UK gun control stop similar massacres? To which the answer would appear to be no.

So the next question would be once such a situation occurred would the response be any more effective and again the answer must be no.

 

There appears to be nothing in UK gun control that would prevent a tragedy like the one in America, and the resources the UK has in place to deal with any similar incident are far less.

Edited January 6, 2013 by puisseguin

[ronthenekred]

Oh dear. Let me ask you a question then.

 

 

Oh dear, let me advise you of a reality check then.

 

While you are conjuring up all these cowboy n injunz type UK scenarios as a deflection from the REAL issue (support for greater gun control in the US). In the time it has taken this thread to cultivate could you point to one UK incident that has led to mass homicide? While you're at it could you equally provide mass shooting stats in the US for the same time frame. Further, could you provide evidence of mass shootings that were avoided by the equal use of guns as a defense strategy.

 

 

If it's possible can you reply with reality rather than "what if" or "arm everyone and the world will be a safer place" type fluffiness that fits in with your Wild Bill Hiccup mentality.

 

---------- Post added 06-01-2013 at 13:11 ----------

 

I suppose the question is would UK gun control stop similar massacres? To which the answer would appear to be no.

So the next question would be once such a situation occurred would the response be any more effective and again the answer must be no.

 

There appears to be nothing in UK gun control that would prevent a tragedy like the one in America, and the resources the UK has in place to deal with any similar incident are far less.

 

The intention of gun control isn't to "stop" incidents such as being discussed..that would be naive even to think that. All control is intended to do is reduce incidents. If you reduce, you reduce the effects and suffering.

 

Our mad people are just as dangerous as the US's mad people..the significance is our mad people can't go get a gun with a half ltr of Starbucks. By the time our nutters get to eventually finding a gun I'd guess they'd have calmed. In the US you only have to think gun and its in your hand blazing away.

[puisseguin]

Oh dear, let me advise you of a reality check then.

 

While you are conjuring up all these cowboy n injunz type UK scenarios as a deflection from the REAL issue (support for greater gun control in the US). In the time it has taken this thread to cultivate could you point to one UK incident that has led to mass homicide? While you're at it could you equally provide mass shooting stats in the US for the same time frame. Further, could you provide evidence of mass shootings that were avoided by the equal use of guns as a defense strategy.

 

 

If it's possible can you reply with reality rather than "what if" or "arm everyone and the world will be a safer place" type fluffiness that fits in with your Wild Bill Hiccup mentality.

 

---------- Post added 06-01-2013 at 13:11 ----------

 

 

The intention of gun control isn't to "stop" incidents such as being discussed..that would be naive even to think that. All control is intended to do is reduce incidents. If you reduce, you reduce the effects and suffering.

 

Our mad people are just as dangerous as the US's mad people..the significance is our mad people can't go get a gun with a half ltr of Starbucks. By the time our nutters get to eventually finding a gun I'd guess they'd have calmed. In the US you only have to think gun and its in your hand blazing away.

 

Isn't this whole thread based on a what if scenario?

 

Aren't you putting forward the "what if we imposed our ideas of gun control on the USA" and then based on no evidence whatsoever then making the assumption that it would change a situation? What evidence do you have that the USA would be a safer place? What evidence have you that the UK would respond any better than the USA if a similar incident occured? Or are you claiming that a similar incident couldn't happen here for some unexplained reason?

 

Incidentally I applied for a shotgun license in the UK, was granted one and bought some shotguns.

Edited January 6, 2013 by puisseguin

[ronthenekred]

Isn't this whole thread based on a what if scenario?

 

Aren't you putting forward the "what if we imposed our ideas of gun control on the USA" and then based on no evidence whatsoever then making the assumption that it would change a situation? What evidence do you have that the USA would be a safer place? What evidence have you that the UK would respond any better than the USA if a similar incident occured? Or are you claiming that a similar incident couldn't happen here for some unexplained reason?

 

Incidentally I applied for a shotgun license in the UK, was granted one and bought some shotguns.

 

I'm not suggesting we propose anything on the American people..it's their prob not ours. The op asks the question "If you were American". Being the case, yes, I would massively support the motion. Being a Brit however massively influences that.

[buck]

That's the whole point. They don't run off. In the school in the USA teachers huddled with children in corners and tried to hide. It doesn't take too long to whack someone with a machete.

 

The police in the New Forest came under fire (not gun fire) in December for taking more than 20 minutes to arrive at the scene of an armed kidnap. It isn't really difficult to see why.

 

Once an incident takes place folk need time to react and make the 999 call. 2 minutes gone already..The call takes time. They need to establish the facts. 5 minutes can easily have past before the armed response even know there's an emergency. Then they have to get there (if they aren't already dealing with another incident) How many armed response cars do we have in Sheffield?

Even getting armed officers to the cinema in Meadowhall would probably be a minimum 10 minute drive. It could easily be double. Then they need to get their kit and get to the cinema. What do you reckon? another 5 minutes? A bit of dither time taking instructions. That sounds like 20/25 minutes to me. So how many casualties would you anticipate them finding?

Now if the same happened at a village school in Scotland>..............

 

Why would you imagine the US borders being pretty tight?. US citizens don't even need a passport to go to and from most of the Caribbean. There are 10s of thousands of illegals cross the borders every year. The land borders are 6000 miles long and the sea borders even longer.

By comparison, the actions by first response police in Newtown was remarkably swift. Twenty six dead is an awful tragedy. It could have easily been two hundred and six. Add the teachers who hid their children safely to the list of the brave. Sooner than constant attacks on the US, some thought needs to be applied to the courage of Americans faced with horror, be it shootings or natural disasters. Add to that the immense generosity and sympathy offered to this little town from people worldwide. The kids have gone back to school in an adjacent town. We know we need to address gun control, we hardly need a reminder, but it will be on our terms, decided by our people, and I hope soon. Edited January 6, 2013 by buck

[RootsBooster]

That's the whole point. They don't run off. In the school in the USA teachers huddled with children in corners and tried to hide. It doesn't take too long to whack someone with a machete.

You seem to be trying to compare the situation and reactions of a gun attack to that of a machete attack.

 

Would YOU run in open sight from someone with a gun (a weapon which can cover distance at the speed of a bullet) or would you hide?

 

Would YOU run from someone with a machete (a weapon only effective at close range) or would you hide?

 

---------- Post added 06-01-2013 at 14:37 ----------

 

By comparison, the actions by first response police in Newtown was remarkably swift. Twenty six dead is an awful tragedy. It could have easily been two hundred and six. Add the teachers who hid their children safely to the list of the brave. Sooner than constant attacks on the US, some thought needs to be applied to the courage of Americans faced with horror, be it shootings or natural disasters. Add to that the immense generosity and sympathy offered to this little town from people worldwide. The kids have gone back to school in an adjacent town. We know we need to address gun control, we hardly need a reminder, but it will be on our terms, decided by our people, and I hope soon.

 

I'm curious Buck, did you vote yes or no in the poll?

[Old Tom]

You seem to be trying to compare the situation and reactions of a gun attack to that of a machete attack.

 

Would YOU run in open sight from someone with a gun (a weapon which can cover distance at the speed of a bullet) or would you hide?

 

Would YOU run from someone with a machete (a weapon only effective at close range) or would you hide?

 

---------- Post added 06-01-2013 at 14:37 ----------

 

 

I'm curious Buck, did you vote yes or no in the poll?

 

 

It is very easy for Brits to fall into the trap of comparing the Americas with Europe.

By comparison with most of the Americas the USA has a low murder rate. Mexico which shares much of the ethnic mix with the USA and shares its geography and a 3000 miles border has far fewer gun owners and far fewer guns. It also has a murder rate 5 times that of the USA.

It is very easy for us to assume that if the USA had our gun control it would have our murder rate. But is is far more likely that if we had their geography we would probably share their murder rates regarless of gun ownership.