14yr old girl reported as injured by the Taliban.

[maxmaximus]

I've got a good idea, why don't you completely ignore my previous post.

 

Re. the bold bit, had you actually read my post you would realise that I never claimed this.

 

I'm all for a debate but when you selectively answer posts using only the criteria that backs up your argument and ignoring the main point the other poster is trying to make it seems a little pointless.

 

So I invite you once more to use the Quran to back up your claim or respond to my post point by point so as not to ignore the bits that don't fit in with your opinion.

 

I have already shown how the actions undertaken by Islamist terrorists do not fit in with the Quran's instructions on war, I do not need to repeat this, you just need to address it.

 

You have posted quotes from the Quran that say when a Muslim can fight a war, you then claim the Muslims that are fighting this war aren't really Muslims because they are ignoring the Quran, (this is contradictory) but as far as I can see the quotes can easily be used to justify attacking the West, whom are perceived as a threat and are supporting the persecution of Muslims, I can’t see how you have reached the conclusion that millions of Muslims aren’t Muslims.

There are Muslims that are at war with the West, possibly because the Quran says Allah would frown upon any Muslim that doesn’t fight to stop the persecution of their fellow Muslims.

There are also Muslims that are not at war with West presumably because they don’t think the West is persecuting their fellow Muslims, or they aren’t bothered that Allah would frown upon their inaction.

 

I thought flamingjimmy’s explanation made it very clear how the Quran can easily be used to justify their actions.

 

I have asked this question before but you keep ignoring it.

 

Explain under what circumstances a Muslim can fight a war and what actions they can take during this war?

[SevenRivers]

Which pretty much sums up the accusations I have levelled against the Taliban all along, BF...

 

In Islam women are permitted to vote, reject an unsuitable husband, they are permitted to own property, inherit, be educated, instigate a divorce if the husband is treating them wrongly... they can attend the mosque if they choose.

 

This is only your take on Islam though Plain Talker.

 

If what you say were absolute truths of Islam, then why in the very birth place of Islam, are women not allowed to vote, barely allowed to take part in sport, hounded by religious police whenever they are out, not allowed to drive cars etc etc etc?

 

And this picture is repeated right across the Islamic world where most of the worlds Muslims live, so I'm highly sceptical of your claims. If the majority of followers believed what you do, then it would probably be different, but it isn't.

[PaliRichard]

You have posted quotes from the Quran that say when a Muslim can fight a war[/Quote]

 

Indeed I have

 

you then claim the Muslims that are fighting this war aren't really Muslims because they are ignoring the Quran, (this is contradictory)[/Quote]

 

Which war would that be?

 

I have said people acting contrary to the instructions laid down in the Quran are not, using the correct meaning of the word 'Muslim', acting in accordance with that teaching. You keep avoiding the quite simple task of taking either the Quran or my post as a whole and putting your explanation as to why you think they are acting in accordance with that teaching. I gave quite specific examples of 'famous' attacks carried out that contradict the Quran - please, as they say in church, for the third time of asking - use my post in its entirety and demonstrate why you think such attacks are backed by the scriptural teaching.

 

but as far as I can see the quotes can easily be used to justify attacking the West, whom are perceived as a threat and are supporting the persecution of Muslims[/Quote]

 

They can if you take them selectively as you, and the people carrying out these attacks, seem to do - which is why I have been repeatedly asking you to no avail to use my post in full so that selectivity is removed - you seem loath to do this.

 

I can’t see how you have reached the conclusion that millions of Muslims aren’t Muslims[/Quote]

 

Millions? I'm not sure how you arrive at that number - once more you seem completely at a loss as to the correct meaning, and the sole context I am employing for the sake of this conversation - of the word 'Muslim'.

 

There are Muslims that are at war with the West, possibly because the Quran says Allah would frown upon any Muslim that doesn’t fight to stop the persecution of their fellow Muslims[/Quote]

 

Or because like you they seem to only have one method of reading - selectively.

 

There are also Muslims that are not at war with West presumably because they don’t think the West is persecuting their fellow Muslims, or they aren’t bothered that Allah would frown upon their inaction[/Quote]

 

I know plenty of Muslims who think the west are persecuting their fellow Muslims - but as there are standards one has to follow in Islam before they actively engage in war (persicution not being the sole factor) they are taking heed of their teachings and not selectively reading them to justify their own political stance.

 

I thought flamingjimmy’s explanation made it very clear how the Quran can easily be used to justify their actions[/Quote]

 

That's just a dirty cop out because you know I wont respond to him - and that has nothing to do with his post.

 

I have asked this question before but you keep ignoring it[/Quote]

 

Pot, Kettle.

 

Explain under what circumstances a Muslim can fight a war and what actions they can take during this war?

 

I have, in my previous post, the one you're selectively reading from because you know full well if you addressed it in its entirety it would make a mockery of your argument - go on - have a bash at it.

[OPEN BORDERS]

This is only your take on Islam though Plain Talker.

 

If what you say were absolute truths of Islam, then why in the very birth place of Islam, are women not allowed to vote, barely allowed to take part in sport, hounded by religious police whenever they are out, not allowed to drive cars etc etc etc?

 

And this picture is repeated right across the Islamic world where most of the worlds Muslims live, so I'm highly sceptical of your claims. If the majority of followers believed what you do, then it would probably be different, but it isn't.

 

Good response, i await the reply with interest.

[maxmaximus]

 

 

 

Which war would that be?

 

 

The one they claim to be fighting with the West, the one in which they blow things up.

It’s not complicated, they claim to be at war and they use Israel’s occupation of Palestine and the West's support of that occupation, as well as our involvement in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya to justify being at war. They claim we started it and that we don’t want piece so they are justified in their action. The Quran allows for this and even claims that to do nothing would displease Allah.

You really need to learn more about being human and less about religion, its open to interpretation, you have your opinion on its interpretation, and others have different opinions on its interpretation, including millions of Muslims.

Its nice that you took the time to read the Quran and form a judgment on what it means, but using your judgment and interpretation to insult the Millions of Muslims that don’t support your interpretation, is taking it a little far.

I did address you post in its entirety and in my opinion the quotes support a Muslims right to be at war with an aggressor, (Israel and the West) who they see as an occupying force on their lands and persecuting their people.

This doesn’t mean all Muslims support this war, because like everyone else Muslims are still humans and will have different interpretations of their holy book and different opinions on Israel and the west’s involvement in bombing and occupying their lands.

Edited October 13, 2012 by maxmaximus

[PaliRichard]

The one they claim to be fighting with the West, the one in which they blow things up.

It’s not complicated, they claim to be at war and they use Israel’s occupation of Palestine and the West's support of that occupation, as well as our involvement in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya to justify being at war. They claim we started it and that we don’t want piece so they are justified in their action. The Quran allows for this and even claims that to do nothing wouldn’t please Allah.

You really need to learn more about being human and less about religion, its open to interpretation, you have your opinion on its interpretation, and others have different opinions on its interpretation, including millions of Muslims.

I nice that you took the time to read the Quran and form a judgment on what it means, but using your judgment and interpretation to insult the Millions of Muslims that don’t support your interpretation, is taking it a little far.

I did address you post in its entirety and in my opinion the quotes support a Muslims right to be at war with an aggressor, (Israel and the West) who they see as an occupying force on their lands and persecuting their people.

This doesn’t mean all Muslims support this war, because like everyone else Muslims are still humans and will have different interpretations of their holy book and different opinions on Israel and the west’s involvement in bombing and occupying their lands.

 

Is this the third, or the fourth time you've made pretty much the exact same post without addrssing my points to you - I've lost count.

 

You haven't addressed my post in its entirety - you addressed those quotes from the Quran that back up your view and ignored those that show your view for exactly what it is - selective.

 

Regarding having my 'opinion' of religions interpretation - I very rarely put forth that 'opinion' on these forums because those on here who talk about Islam just go on and on about the exact same tedious things - in my opinion there is plenty to criticise Islam for - but these threads very rarely go 'deep' enough that the genuine criticism can taker place.

 

If you think that merely taking the correct understanding of a word and applying it appropriately is 'opinion' then that is up to you - as you have demonstrated that you are both clearly unable to understand the correct context of that word and have done your very best to avoid addressing the quotes from the quran I took the time to prepare for you apart from to take selective points to reinforce your own opinion I see very little point in continuing this discussion. If you do feel like taking the post I made and addressing the quotes point by point I may consider responding, other than that I have read the same post worded slightly differently for your past three or four posts and have no intention of doing so again.

[maxmaximus]

I

You haven't addressed my post in its entirety - you addressed those quotes from the Quran that back up your view and ignored those that show your view for exactly what it is - selective.

 

 

I addressed the quotes from the Quran that you posted.

 

Under what circumstances can a Muslim fight a war and what actions can they can take during this war?

 

If not the bombing and occupation of their lands and the persecution of their people when can they fight according to your unique interpretation of their book?

Edited October 13, 2012 by maxmaximus

[PaliRichard]

I addressed the quotes from the Quran that you posted. [/Quote]

 

selectively - to back up your own point of view, you addressed the ones that said Muslims can fight and that Allah would be pleased if they fight and ignored the ones that detailed the circumstances in which they could fight (unless they backed up your view) and forbade certain action in war.

 

Under what circumstances can a Muslim fight a war and what actions can they can take during this war?[/Quote]

 

answered in post #126 (the bits that you seem to have no ability to read, you know those that don't reinforce your opinion)

 

If not the bombing and occupation of their lands and the persecution of their people when can they fight according to your unique interpretation of their book?

 

It's not my 'unique' interpretation, the circumstances are detailed in #126.

 

I can't be bothered now, your petty avoidance tactics have become tedious - night night.

[maxmaximus]

selectively - to back up your own point of view, you addressed the ones that said Muslims can fight and that Allah would be pleased if they fight and ignored the ones that detailed the circumstances in which they could fight (unless they backed up your view) and forbade certain action in war.

 

 

 

answered in post #126 (the bits that you seem to have no ability to read, you know those that don't reinforce your opinion)

 

 

 

It's not my 'unique' interpretation, the circumstances are detailed in #126.

 

I can't be bothered now, your petty avoidance tactics have become tedious - night night.

 

You are the one claiming that millions of Muslims aren’t really Muslims and you have failed continually to demonstrate why. You posted quotes from the Quran that quite clearly don’t support your stance, and point clearly to the fact a Muslim can take up arms in the defence of their homelands and people. Some Muslims feel their homeland is under foreign occupation and their people are being persecuted, which according to your quotes are clear reasons for taking up arms against the aggressor and that not doing so would displease Allah.

 

You can't be bothered because you can't support your stance that millions of Muslims aren’t Muslims and don't follow Islam, which is most likely the same reason you didn’t respond to flamingjimmy’s post, because you didn’t have a reasonable argument to counter it.

[Aleksandr]

According to the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19893309 she's still alive at the moment.

 

 

 

That would only be true if all Muslims supported the Taliban, which they don't. Otherwise the Taliban would rule every Muslim country. Not all Catholics support the IRA. Not all Christians supported Hitler. Not everyone lives in a simple black and white world.

Indeed, and many Muslims are only 'Muslims' because they fear the penalty for apostasy, which is death! Nice religion/cult.