14yr old girl reported as injured by the Taliban.

[PaliRichard]

It would be utterly meaningless if people were not blowing themselves and others up as a result of them.

 

However they are, so it's quite important.

 

As non-muslims clearly we regard the whole quran as mohameds self-serving made up nonsense. As a muslim you regard it as true. What you take from it clearly is good. What our enemies take from it is clearly less good.

 

But is what our enemies take from it wrong is the question?[/Quote]

 

That's not the question though, or not the whole question.

 

It's not the question for two reasons, firstly because they do exactly what maxmaximus has done consistantly throughtout our debate and taken the bits that suit them and ignored the rest, thus justifying their own actions by deliberately employing selectivity.

 

So the question is not 'is what our enemies take from it wrong', but should be 'is what our enemies take from it the whole picture' - and this has been my point throughout, whether an Islamist terrorist or a right wing anti Muslim they take the 'bad bits' for want of a better word and ignore the rest.

 

The second reason is that these terrorists aren't only using selective reading from the Quran for justification - they are also using (Or perhaps even predominantly using) the supplimentary texts to justify their actions.

 

Now as far as I'm aware it's for the Muslim community tio decide which texts are authentic in Islam for themselves - but my point has been consistantly that the correct meaning of the word 'Muslim' is one who Submits to the will of Allah - the will of Allah is the Quran - so a terrorist who uses the suplimentary texts and selective quotes from the Quran to justify their actions can hardly be called 'Muslim'.

 

 

Are we fighting against the islamists? Yes. So should an islamist want to fight us? That seems likely yes if they believe a sky pixie commands them to fight us. So are they the "true muslims"? Or are the muslims that stand with us non-muslims the real muslims?[/Quote]

 

This can be split into two too, firstly the one thing I don't understand - you're desperate to widen the use of the term Muslim out of its technical sphere and then you clearly have no respect for the religion anyway.

 

It seems the only reason that this is done is so you can lump all Muslims together because you simply don't like the idea of Islam period - and the idea that there may be a 'right' Muslim then makes it more difficult to ridicule the religion on the whole.

 

Secondly if we are respecting the beliefs of Islam a 'sky pixie' hasn't commanded the Islamists to fight us - they have taken the sections that give them justification to fight out of context.

 

I also don't think it's as black and white to say the Muslims who 'stand with us' - certainly many of the Muslims I know are not in favour of 'our' (Britains) policies regarding the war on terror - but as they are living in accordance with the Quran they don't go blowing us up willy nilly.

 

I'm not betting a lifetime in allahs hell if i'm wrong because islam is all as convincing as a fat lorry driver dressed up as mandy at weekends, the muslims who take one side or other are (including you) and all maximus is doing is respecting that big bet they are making on one side or other and objecting to any non-muslim telling muslims what the "real" islam is.

 

What Maximus is doing, and has consistantly done is taken the Quran out of context to suit his own viewpoint - not only has he done this he has also refused several requests to make a point by point analysis of my post to back up his assertion that terrorists are 'submitting to the will of Allah' in their actions.

[PaliRichard]

Quite possibly, but as all Muslims are maybe not as intelligent as you, or see themselves as a persecuted people because they live in a country they perceive to be occupied by a foreign force. They probably look at it differently to you and take the action they think Allah wants them to take.

 

As I’ve said before, it’s a book written 1400 years ago so is open to different interpretations, and can pretty much mean what you want it to mean.

Some Muslims have a reason to fight and the book gives them the right to fight, one doesn’t blow one’s self up unless one as absolute faith that it is what Allah wants and will gain them access to a better life by his side.[/Quote]

 

While I agree with this I don't agree with it being 'because the book tells them to.

 

For the most part the terrorists are influenced by the political agenda of people who are selective in their reading of the Quran and promote only the bits that justify their viewpoint.

 

Habu Hamza wasn't deported for preaching about treating orphans well or giving money to the poor - he was deported for preaching terror - and the people who are influenced by him are inclined to that message.

 

I couldn’t hope to reason with such a person because I don’t believe in God, the only people that stand a chance of reasoning with these people are their fellow Muslims that do have something in common, their belief in Allah.

 

Again I agree, but their 'fellow Muslims' are not inclined to do so when they are getting lumped in with the terrorists left right and centre by people who don't even understand their religion.

Edited October 15, 2012 by PaliRichard

[PaliRichard]

Back on topic,it appears she is coming to the UK for treatment she needs.Let's hope it is a success.

 

Indeed let us hope it is.

 

One thing I don't understand (and I'm certainly not complaining) is why she's being brought here for treatment? Has she got connections to the UK or is it some other reason?

[Doris Night]

Am I the only one who disagrees with the girl being brought here for treatment. I heard on the news that the treatment she will need will be very lengthy. I know it seems harsh but there are people already here, of all races, who've paid taxes and can't get the treatment they need. For instance someone I know has just started an expensive treatment for a life threatening illness after waiting since last October.

 

It seems the country is not as hard up as we are continually told. Perhaps the girl's treatment is to be funded by the Pakistan government but they just don't have the facilities. Then that would be ok.

[maxmaximus]

what maxmaximus has done consistantly throughtout our debate and taken the bits that suit them and ignored the rest, thus justifying their own actions by deliberately employing selectivity.

 

 

I ignore it all PaliRichard because it has no relevance to my life; it’s a punch of words written in a book by a man, that can be used for both piece and violence.

 

You selectively ignore the parts that are used by some Muslims to justify their violent actions. Some Muslims think they are fighting a war because of the perceived persecution of their fellow Muslims and occupation of their lands.

 

They fact they are just submitting to the will of Allah by trying to stop the persecution of their fellow Muslims appears to go over your head, remember your claim that Allah would frown upon any Muslim that didn’t act to protect the innocent, and yet you condemn the Muslims that are acting in defence of their land and people.

 

Maybe you would like to explain each of the verses I posted and explain what actions a Muslim can take in defence of their lands and people.

[maxmaximus]

Indeed let us hope it is.

 

One thing I don't understand (and I'm certainly not complaining) is why she's being brought here for treatment? Has she got connections to the UK or is it some other reason?

 

Probably because we all the Pakistani doctors are here and this is where she will receive the best care, the Pakistani government have strong ties to the UK and are paying for her treatment.

[maxmaximus]

While I agree with this I don't agree with it being 'because the book tells them to.

 

For the most part the terrorists are influenced by the political agenda of people who are selective in their reading of the Quran and promote only the bits that justify their viewpoint.

 

Habu Hamza wasn't deported for preaching about treating orphans well or giving money to the poor - he was deported for preaching terror - and the people who are influenced by him are inclined to that message.

 

 

 

Again I agree, but their 'fellow Muslims' are not inclined to do so when they are getting lumped in with the terrorists left right and centre by people who don't even understand their religion.

They don’t actually see themselves as terrorists; they see themselves as freedom fighters that are just trying to stop the persecution of their people and occupation of their land.

[janie48]

Am I the only one who disagrees with the girl being brought here for treatment. I heard on the news that the treatment she will need will be very lengthy. I know it seems harsh but there are people already here, of all races, who've paid taxes and can't get the treatment they need. For instance someone I know has just started an expensive treatment for a life threatening illness after waiting since last October.

 

It seems the country is not as hard up as we are continually told. Perhaps the girl's treatment is to be funded by the Pakistan government but they just don't have the facilities. Then that would be ok.

 

If there is a better chance of her making a recovery i'm very glad she has been brought here.I don't think its going to make any difference to NHS waiting lists.

[PaliRichard]

I ignore it all PaliRichard because it has no relevance to my life; it’s a punch of words written in a book by a man, that can be used for both piece and violence[/Quote]

 

It obviously has some relevance you've been arguing with me for days.

 

You selectively ignore the parts that are used by some Muslims to justify their violent actions[/Quote]

 

I haven't ignored them, I have taken them in the correct context.

 

Some Muslims think they are fighting a war because of the perceived persecution of their fellow Muslims and occupation of their lands[/Quote]

 

So you keep selectively quoting.

 

They fact they are just submitting to the will of Allah by trying to stop the persecution of their fellow Muslims appears to go over your head, remember your claim that Allah would frown upon any Muslim that didn’t act to protect the innocent, and yet you condemn the Muslims that are acting in defence of their land and people[/Quote]

 

That was not my claim - it was part of a wider set of quotes which formed a larger picture which you hace consistantly taken out of context.

 

Maybe you would like to explain each of the verses I posted and explain what actions a Muslim can take in defence of their lands and people.

 

:hihi:

 

You're a comedian - either that or at troll - whichever it is you have some gall asking me to explain your verses when I have been waiting days and asking over and over for you to make point by point references to the post I made.

 

Plain Talker has already stated you have taken those verses out of context - as this has been your form throughout I have no reason to suspect otherwise.

 

My word how gullible do you think we are?

[Doris Night]

They don’t actually see themselves as terrorists; they see themselves as freedom fighters that are just trying to stop the persecution of their people and occupation of their land.

 

While some occupy this land at the same time... That theory is flawed I'm afraid.