14yr old girl reported as injured by the Taliban.

[melthebell]

I haven't attempted to label all Muslims as terrorist, some are and some aren’t

some are but the VAST MAJORITY ARENT

[PaliRichard]

I haven't attempted to label all Muslims as terrorist[/Quote]

 

No you haven't, I apologise deeply for that accusation, I was a little on the fly last night and that was entirely my mistake, again I offer my sincere apologies.

 

Could you post a link to the Quran's definition of battlefield?

 

That would be difficult as there is no specified 'definition' so a 'black and white' verse is not possible to give. However, I have tried to amalgamate a few verses which point out the behaviour expected of Muslims on the battlefield and I am hoping that you will understand, once the verses have been put together, how the context of fighting is to be understood.

 

I have taken all of the following verses from this website http://www.quranexplorer.com/ and chosen the translation of Marmaduke Pickthall (http://www.loyalenemy.co.uk/) on account of his being widely accepted as the definitive English Translation.

 

Due to many of the verses containing the word believer I want to point out what constitutes a 'believer' in a general sense in Islam (I will come onto the specifics of 'Muslim' later).

 

Surah Al-Baqara

 

Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabians - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (62)[/Quote]

 

So a believer does not just consist of 'Muslims', the idea of 'terrorists' (those who kill indiscriminately) being believers can also be addressed;

 

Surah An-Nisa

 

O ye who believe! Squander not your wealth among yourselves in vanity, except it be a trade by mutual consent, and kill not one another. Lo! Allah is ever Merciful unto you. (29) And whoso doeth that through aggression and injustice, we shall cast him into Fire, and that is ever easy for Allah. (30) [/Quote]

 

and

 

Surah Al-Hujraat

 

And if two parties of believers fall to fighting, then make peace between them. And if one party of them doeth wrong to the other, fight ye that which doeth wrong till it return unto the ordinance of Allah; then, if it return, make peace between them justly, and act equitably. Lo! Allah loveth the equitable. (9) [/Quote]

 

and

 

Surah An-Nisa

 

Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom. (93)[/Quote]

 

 

and

 

Surah Al-Hujraat

 

The believers are naught else than brothers. Therefore make peace between your brethren and observe your duty to Allah that haply ye may obtain mercy. (10)[/Quote]

 

One could argue that none of the above say anything about believers 'dying in the line of fire', an argument often used by terrorists that those Mulims killed in terrorist attacks are somehow 'matyrs', but the following verse does address this;

 

Surah An-Nisa

 

It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless (it be) by mistake. He who hath killed a believer by mistake must set free a believing slave, and pay the blood-money to the family of the slain, unless they remit it as a charity. If he (the victim) be of a people hostile unto you, and he is a believer, then (the penance is) to set free a believing slave. And if he cometh of a folk between whom and you there is a covenant, then the blood-money must be paid unto his folk and (also) a believing slave must be set free. And whoso hath not the wherewithal must fast two consecutive months. A penance from Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise. (92) [/Quote]

 

A 'mistake' is not saying believers who die because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time, almost, if not every suicide (or terror) attack that has taken place by Islamist militants has killed believers, and the excuse that they are 'martys' does not marry with the Qurans description of 'mistake'.

 

The idea that groups like the taliban are acting in accordance with the Quran is addressed in the following verse;

 

Surah Ash-Shura

 

The way (of blame) is only against those who oppress mankind, and wrongfully rebel in the earth. For such there is a painful doom. (42)[/Quote]

 

In battle Muslims are also told to forgive, and accept 'ceasefire' for want of a better word, at every opportunity.

 

Surah Ash-Shura

 

The guerdon of an ill-deed is an ill the like thereof. But whosoever pardoneth and amendeth, his wage is the affair of Allah. Lo! He loveth not wrong-doers. (40) [/Quote]

 

Surah Al-Baqara

 

And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. (193) [/Quote]

 

and starting hostilities is also frowned upon, the believer should act strictly in self defence

 

Surah Al-Baqara

 

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (190)[/Quote]

 

The Muslim shouldn't begin fighting, because they should not take pleasure in warfare, in fact the character of the 'Muslim' is to be against fighting;

 

Surah Al-Baqara

 

Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not. (216)[/Quote]

 

Surah Al-Hajj

 

Sanction (to fight) is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory; (39)[/Quote]

 

Fighting should be undertaken when the innocent are in harms way, and not to do so is frowned upon by allah, but the context is always strictly when either your life or the life of an innocent is in danger;

 

Surah An-Nisa

 

How should ye not fight for the cause of Allah and of the feeble among men and of the women and the children who are crying: Our Lord! Bring us forth from out this town of which the people are oppressors! Oh, give us from thy presence some protecting friend! Oh, give us from Thy presence some defender! (75)[/Quote]

 

No one is pretending that war is not prescribed in Islam, only that it is strictly in the context of self defence, as the following verses say, if you are attacked, defend yourself, if they offer peace, accept it, but if they are using that peace as a 'ruse', you are permitted to fight again;

 

Surah Al-Anfal

 

(O Qureysh!) If ye sought a judgment, now hath the judgment come unto you. And if ye cease (from persecuting the believers) it will be better for you, but if ye return (to the attack) We also shall return. And your host will avail you naught, however numerous it be, and (know) that Allah is with the believers (in His guidance). (19)[/Quote]

 

Surah Al-Tawba

 

And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist. (12)[/Quote]

 

Even in these cases it is better to try to avoid fighting, in the following verses believers are told to prepare a 'show' of force to try to 'scare' the enemy into submission before the fighting actually starts.

 

Surah Al-Anfal

 

Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged. (60)And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, is the Hearer, the Knower. (61)[/Quote]

 

Even taking all that into account the Muslim is not told they 'have' to fight, if it is possible to avoid doing so the believer is permitted to escape if it is possible;

 

Surah Al-Baqara

 

Lo! those who believe, and those who emigrate (to escape the persecution) and strive in the way of Allah, these have hope of Allah's mercy. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (218)[/Quote]

 

I hope this has gone some way in showing you the context of war in Islam and that fighting should be limited to the 'battlefield'.

 

I haven't attempted to label all Muslims as terrorist, some are and some aren’t, this is a concept you are having great difficulty with. You appear not to understand the basics of being human and the fact we are all different, with different opinions and views.[/Quote]

 

In fact I do understand that very well, but I am defending 'Muslims' because many posters/people in general (again I apologise for 'lumping you in with these people) do get them mixed up with extremists, and I have spoken to many Muslims themselves who are loath to use the term 'Muslim' in relation to these people.

 

So I'm using Muslim in this specific way because it differentiates between the actual meaning of the word (being one who submits to the will of Allah) and the common usage of the word (being essentially anyone who associates themselves with Islam). I will return to the oft used example I give that a paedophile would consider themself to have 'normal' sexual urges - just because one associates with something it doesn't make it so, I am using Islams own definition of the word - I am not 'judging' anyone - merely pointing out the definition using their own criteria.

 

Regarding the word 'Muslim' meaning 'one who follows the will of Allah', the following makes it clear that those who merely pay 'lip service' (identify themselves as Muslim) are not Muslim.

 

Surah An-Nisa

 

Lo! the hypocrites seek to beguile Allah, but it is He Who beguileth them. When they stand up to worship they perform it languidly and to be seen of men, and are mindful of Allah but little; (142)[/Quote]

 

Surah An-Nisa

 

Lo! the hypocrites (will be) in the lowest deep of the Fire, and thou wilt find no helper for them; (145)[/Quote]

 

Surah Al-Tawba

 

So He hath made the consequence (to be) hypocrisy in their hearts until the day when they shall meet Him, because they broke their word to Allah that they promised Him, and because they lied. (77)[/Quote]

 

These verses clearly state that merely associating yourself as a Muslim does not, in the view of the Quran, make you one - in fact such association without the actual 'practice' makes you a hypocrite.

Edited October 12, 2012 by PaliRichard

[Plain Talker]

You quote surat-al-Kahf but you only quote the single verse, and not in context, particularly the verses that come later, which explain the comments.

 

 

So they both proceeded, till, when they embarked the ship, he (Khidr) scuttled it. Moosa (Moses) said: "Have you scuttled it in order to drown its people? Verily, you have committed a thing "Imra" (a Munkar - evil, bad, dreadful thing)."

72 He (Khidr) said: "Did I not tell you, that you would not be able to have patience with me?"

73 (Moosa (Moses)) said: "Call me not to account for what I forgot, and be not hard upon me for my affair (with you)."

 

74 Then they both proceeded, till they met a boy, he (Khidr) killed him. Moosa (Moses) said: "Have you killed an innocent person who had killed none? Verily, you have committed a thing "Nukra" (a great Munkar - prohibited, evil, dreadful thing)!"

75 (Khidr) said: "Did I not tell you that you can have no patience with me?"

76 (Moosa (Moses)) said: "If I ask you anything after this, keep me not in your company, you have received an excuse from me."

77 Then they both proceeded, till, when they came to the people of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused to entertain them. Then they found therein a wall about to collapse and he (Khidr) set it up straight. (Moosa (Moses)) said: If you had wished, surely, you could have taken wages for it!"

78 (Khidr) said: "This is the parting between me and you, I will tell you the interpretation of (those) things over which you were unable to hold patience.

79 "As for the ship, it belonged to Masakeen (poor people) working in the sea. So I wished to make a defective damage in it, as there was a king after them who seized every ship by force.

80 "And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.

81 "So we intended that their Lord should change him for them for one better in righteousness and near to mercy.

82 "And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the town; and there was under it a treasure belonging to them; and their father was a righteous man, and your Lord intended that they should attain their age of full strength and take out their treasure as a mercy from your Lord. And I did it not of my own accord. That is the interpretation of those (things) over which you could not hold patience."

 

the explanation within verse 80, is a bit like in the hypothetical riddle/conundrum where you are asked to choose between two children and you find out the one child is Beethoven, and the other child turns out to be Hitler.

 

(Oh, god! I've mentioned Hitler... I've Godwin-ed myself!!lol)

 

The Riddle of the Non-Beethoven. Garrett Hardin thus presents this "riddle"

 

Two physicians are talking shop. "Doctor," says one, "I'd like your professional opinion. The question is, should the pregnancy have been terminated or not? The father was syphilitic. The mother was tuberculous. They had already had four children: the first was blind, the second died, the third was deaf and dumb, and the fourth was tuberculous. The woman was pregnant for the fifth time. As the attending physician, what would you have done?"

 

"I would have terminated the pregnancy."

 

"Then you would have murdered Beethoven."

 

Now let's shift the scene a bit. Instead, the doctor then describes the plight of a poor unmarried servant girl who is impregnated by a neer-do-well lover. Her prospects, and that of her potential child, are poor indeed. Should she abort? If so, then she would have "murdered Hitler." Of course, in both cases the prospective parents had no way of knowing just how extraordinary were the lives that would result from these pregnancies.

[gotone]

Just heard on the news a 14yr old girl has been killed by the Taliban in Pakistan.

Her crime - speaking up for girls rights regarding education.

How brave of the Taliban eh.

 

Poor kid, what chance in that hell hole.

[Plain Talker]

Poor kid, what chance in that hell hole.

 

Whoo there you are again:- if you read further down, instead of rushing in, eagerly, with your usual glee to diss Islam, you will read that she is, thankfully, NOT dead, at all, just seriously wounded.

[Glamrocker]

some are but the VAST MAJORITY ARENT

how we define terrorism and how Islam defines terrorism seems to be entirely different ,what we define as terrorism they call it a jihad,the goalposts then are moved do all/most muslims recognise Jihad ..I would imagine so

[Glamrocker]

Whoo there you are again:- if you read further down, instead of rushing in, eagerly, with your usual glee to diss Islam, you will read that she is, thankfully, NOT dead, at all, just seriously wounded.

i dont think the poster made any comment on whether she was alive or not,lets not continue personal arguments from other threads.

[LeMaquis]

how we define terrorism and how Islam defines terrorism seems to be entirely different ,what we define as terrorism they call it a jihad,the goalposts then are moved do all/most muslims recognise Jihad ..I would imagine so

 

How the British state defines terrorism and how Irish Republicans define terrorism are entirely different. One side calls it murder and mayhem and the other calls it a liberation struggle. But that's Christians for you.

 

I suppose you have to imagine what most Muslims think as you obviously haven't met many. You would have done though if the BNP had allowed non-whites to join.

[Glamrocker]

How the British state defines terrorism and how Irish Republicans define terrorism are entirely different. One side calls it murder and mayhem and the other calls it a liberation struggle. But that's Christians for you.

 

I suppose you have to imagine what most Muslims think as you obviously haven't met many. You would have done though if the BNP had allowed non-whites to join.

Why the fixation with a down and out non de script political party,I probably meet more muslims on a daily basis than you meet in a month,I have no argument with individual muslims its the actual religion I question.It seems you are unable to comprehend my stance on the BNP and its satellites I suggest you take the time to follow threads instead of just seeing the name Glamrocker and assuming youre being smart by connecting me to something you either promote or fear greatly,whats up did a skinhead once give you a slap ?

[johncocker]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2012/10/201210127446942327.html

 

would'nt it be something if this took off like the arab spring:thumbsup: