The Consequences of Brexit [part 4]

[Magilla]

Worth a look:

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-twitter-thread-political-analyst-european-union-united-kingdom-united-states-america-7834846

 

Yep, in the most part the EU is not at fault in this farce.

[Hairyloon]

Yep, in the most part the EU is not at fault in this farce.

 

That sounds like a fact. Shhh, facts are not welcome here...

[sgtkate]

I'm not sure what you think I'm trying to convince you of!

Someone asked for reasons why I voted for Brexit so I stated some.

The HRT is about claiming benefits. That's not really my concern. I want, in principle, the right to refuse entry to the UK, to anyone we choose based on whatever policies we choose. We simply don't have that ability now.

You are assuming why I want that and trying to argue that the HRT should somehow dissuade me of that view. It doesn't.

 

I understand what you are trying to say, and yes I suppose that the 'ideal' scenario would be that we can bring our own rules on who we allow into the country and who we don't WHILST keeping membership of the EU. I have never been a fan of completely open migration as I think it can actually harm the poorer countries more than we gain from it. People saying that the NHS would die without immigrants are absolutely right so we make sure that anyone looking to work in certain areas are given visa-free fast-tracked entry and the same rules apply in reverse meaning Brits don't have the absolute right to work anywhere in the EU either unless they meet certain criteria. I think the EU got this one wrong in the first place, but that doesn't mean I am anti-immigration, far from it, but actually like TheNugget I don't understand what benefits there are to ANY country if that immigration cannot be managed by the receiving country.

 

Sadly that scenario wasn't on the cards and for me the benefits to EU membership outweight massively the downsides to fully open immigration and therefore I wish we were staying.

[L00b]

Sure I did - I said - "we decide who comes into the country based on the skills and expertise we need at any given point. I'm Pro- immigration, just not pro- uncontrolled immigration. "

That still does not explain why you have a problem with EU immigrants' right of establishment in the UK, and why you still refuse to answer my comment about the entirely reciprocal nature of this right for British emigrants to the EU.

 

Besides, regarding the bit in bold above, considering the UK employment stats to date, the UK has been doing -and tries to continue to do- just that. For years and years. Incidentally, that's part and parcel of how and why the UK economy weathered the 2008 crisis better than most.

[Harrystottle]

People saying that the NHS would die without immigrants are absolutely right

 

This is just globalism in action. How much does it cost to train a doctor or a nurse? Many many ££££££££££.

 

How much does it cost to poach them from India or the Phillipines?

 

Much less. Like a lot of things in the UK it's about the bottom line.

[sgtkate]

That's the thing though - immigration from the EU is largely self-managing. People come here from the EU in response to demand, and they can leave quickly and easily too. Most inward migrants from the EU are workers prepared to deploy themselves flexibly within the workforce. They share similar culture and values as us. Non-EU immigration is another story altogether - the proportion of workers is much lower. The workers are much less flexible. Many are coming here permanently. Worse still, taking my own industry as an example, those that do come here to work often displace UK workers - the traditional apprentice/graduate routes into IT have been massively reduced because ready-made workers are just imported, mostly from SE Asia.

 

So why would controls if correctly applied be harmful to either the UK industries, UK citizens or prospective immigrants themselves? We can use immigration policies to reduce the ready-made workers coming in to support better development of UK skilled workers such as grads and apprentices. But we have to do it carefully and think about the consequences of such action on our businesses ability to handle the changing workforce, wages, working conditions and so on. Immigration controls will never be a magic bullet whilst the government is unwilling to tackle low wages, poor working conditions and gig economy loopholes.

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2017 at 08:44 ----------

 

This is just globalism in action. How much does it cost to train a doctor or a nurse? Many many ££££££££££.

 

How much does it cost to poach them from India or the Phillipines?

 

Much less. Like a lot of things in the UK it's about the bottom line.

 

Yes but is that the right way? Importing cheaper staff rather than trying to upskill our own is surely extreme short-termism? Unless we are taking on the role of trying to fix the entire world, which while highly laudable I don't think we can do it solo!

[I1L2T3]

So why would controls if correctly applied be harmful to either the UK industries, UK citizens or prospective immigrants themselves? We can use immigration policies to reduce the ready-made workers coming in to support better development of UK skilled workers such as grads and apprentices. But we have to do it carefully and think about the consequences of such action on our businesses ability to handle the changing workforce, wages, working conditions and so on. Immigration controls will never be a magic bullet whilst the government is unwilling to tackle low wages, poor working conditions and gig economy loopholes.

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2017 at 08:44 ----------

 

 

Yes but is that the right way? Importing cheaper staff rather than trying to upskill our own is surely extreme short-termism? Unless we are taking on the role of trying to fix the entire world, which while highly laudable I don't think we can do it solo!

 

Because we don't correctly apply them.

 

I've watched with disbelief as company after company I worked at effectively dismantled their grad and apprentice programmes, and shipped in people off the shelf mostly from India.

 

Now we are told there is an IT skills shortage and we have to bring in even more IT workers from India. Actually though it is true that there is a shortage and the truth is that many big IT companies are running on a mix of seasoned older pros like myself, and imported talent of highly variable quality.

 

The shortage is made worse by the fact the number of new trainees is at low levels, as are the openings for new trainees. So a couple of things:

 

1. These medium to large size companies will always demand the most profitable policies for themselves and expect the government to support them. If that means not having to train people and fly people in they will, so government just caves in to corporate demands.

 

2. This semi-destruction of the UK IT talent pool did not have to happen. It has been driven by what I'd describe as uncontrolled non-EU immigration of IT workers. It is uncontrolled in the sense that the government (Tory, coalition and Labour before them) allowed it to happen while simulataneously failing to safeguard skills training in a key industry.

 

Look, it's ok for me personally. I'll never be out of work. I get calls every day about new roles and at the moment my company has so much work because of Brexit we can hardly cope. But my real concern is the future - the same vested interests will want to open the floodgates to Indian workers post Brexit so my fear is the future of our kids. Their chances of getting the real quality jobs in the economy are nowhere near as threatened now as they will be when we have an unlimited supply of graduates from SE Asia.

[sgtkate]

Because we don't correctly apply them.

 

I've watched with disbelief as company after company I worked at effectively dismantled their grad and apprentice programmes, and shipped in people off the shelf mostly from India.

 

Now we are told there is an IT skills shortage and we have to bring in even more IT workers from India. Actually though it is true that there is a shortage and the truth is that many big IT companies are running on a mix of seasoned older pros like myself, and imported talent of highly variable quality.

 

The shortage is made worse by the fact the number of new trainees is at low levels, as are the openings for new trainees. So a couple of things:

 

1. These medium to large size companies will always demand the most profitable policies for themselves and expect the government to support them. If that means not having to train people and fly people in they will, so government just caves in to corporate demands.

 

2. This semi-destruction of the UK IT talent pool did not have to happen. It has been driven by what I'd describe as uncontrolled non-EU immigration of IT workers. It is uncontrolled in the sense that the government (Tory, coalition and Labour before them) allowed it to happen while simulataneously failing to safeguard skills training in a key industry.

 

Look, it's ok for me personally. I'll never be out of work. I get calls every day about new roles and at the moment my company has so much work because of Brexit we can hardly cope. But my real concern is the future - the same vested interests will want to open the floodgates to Indian workers post Brexit so my fear is the future of our kids. Their chances of getting the real quality jobs in the economy are nowhere near as threatened now as they will be when we have an unlimited supply of graduates from SE Asia.

 

Also working it IT and being a seasoned pro as you call it, I totally agree with your summary. I'm very lucky that my company really does invest in the UK IT talent pool and takes on hundreds of grads and apprentices each year. I'm part of the team that helps to recruit and train them up, unlucky buggers! But equally we have outsourced loads of our work to India and Singapore although plenty is starting to come back into the UK as it's been shown that outsourcing overseas often leads to lower standards.

 

However, how do we fix this? Even if we start bringing in better immigration controls then we potentially push the work overseas wholly rather than bringing in foreign workers who at least can share their knowledge and skills with our own workforce? Difficult one to fix really.

[Hairyloon]

Yes but is that the right way? Importing cheaper staff rather than trying to upskill our own is surely extreme short-termism?

The world is run on short termism.

 

Unless we are taking on the role of trying to fix the entire world, which while highly laudable I don't think we can do it solo!

 

Somebody has to do it. That is why Brexit is such a good idea: we'll drop completely out of the global economy and be forced to rebuild from the ground up.

We will have no choice but to do it properly and in a sustainable way, and thereby show the rest of the world how it should be done.

 

It will be properly harsh for a few decades and the Brexiteers ought to be commended for their bravery. We got through the Blitz, Brexit won't be very much worse... except that during the Blitz we didn't have the rest of the world laughing at us on TV, but perhaps the Trump will grab some of that audience.

 

---------- Post added 12-07-2017 at 09:28 ----------

 

I get calls every day about new roles and at the moment my company has so much work because of Brexit we can hardly cope...

 

Would you like to give me a job? I specialise in being too clever by half.

[L00b]

The world is run on short termism.

The Anglo Saxon world, that is.

 

Many Continental countries, India, China <...> do medium and long term just fine, with the Germans better at it than most.