The Consequences of Brexit [part 4]

[Cyclone 10]

We should not hold another EU referendum for at least 20 - 30 years.

 

The £9.3 million government pamphlet 'Why the government believes that voting to remain in the EU is the best decision for the UK' that was sent at great public expense to over 27 million homes specifically stated:

 

The EU referendum is a once in a generation decision.

 

This government leaflet also stated:

 

This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide.

 

The people decided we should leave the EU and all its institutions. Let's do this!

 

Worried that the people have now changed their mind? Now that the leave lies have started to become more obvious...

 

---------- Post added 17-12-2017 at 14:10 ----------

 

Unlike you I accept the result of the official EU referendum poll and respect the people in the majority who voted a different way to me for whatever reasons. In my opinion people seeking another EU referendum now are childish people, who are behaving in the same way as children do when they ask their Mummy if they can go out to play after their Daddy has already told them they can't go out to play. Time for you and the other spoilt children here to grow up.

 

I don't understand this logic.

I accept the result, but clearly the opinion of many millions has now changed. It would be undemocratic to pretend that this hasn't happened and demand that we execute the result of a vote which is clearly no longer representative.

It seems like 'democracy' only when it's convenient to be honest.

 

And why oh why did you feel like you had to end that comment with a personal attack? Spoilt children. 50% of the population now don't want to leave, compared to 40% that do. But they're all "spoilt children" because you don't happen to agree (despite claiming to have voted stay).

 

---------- Post added 17-12-2017 at 14:12 ----------

 

Hardly a simply knee jerk vote. The electorate had ample time to think which way they wished to vote. Just because more people voted the opposite to you doesn't mean those people didn't think carefully before they voted. It is not the fault of those who voted to leave because of uncertainty and lack of planning.

The electorate were lied to, that's been clear for a long time.

 

The only reason you want the UK to have a chance to change its mind is for you own selfish reasons because you don't want the UK to leave the EU.

 

How can you make this claim, it flies in the face of reality.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Cyclone

[ENG601PM 10]

The electorate were lied to, that's been clear for a long time.

They certainly were. Then they voted Leave.

 

Ahhh, but you mean the other lies that nobody believed anyway, not the other lies that they had been told for 40 years.

 

How can you make this claim, it flies in the face of reality.

Litotes career and lifestyle is EU funded. It might account for a teensy pro-EU bias.

[Litotes 63]

Litotes career and lifestyle is EU funded. It might account for a teensy pro-EU bias.

 

As I have said before, many statements in this thread are lies - including this - please stop using your ignorance for personal attacks.

[I1L2T3 10]

You are either agin political violence or you are not. You don't get to choose. Your attitude is no better than the man who killed Jo Cox. Awful, just awful.

 

I’m against it obviously. I wish Farage no physical harm though his finances are a source of immense delight for me.

 

I was simply commenting on the symmetry at play. Actions have consequences....which is of course the theme of this thread.

[Lockdoctor 10]

Worried that the people have now changed their mind? Now that the leave lies have started to become more obvious...

 

---------- Post added 17-12-2017 at 14:10 ----------

 

 

I don't understand this logic.

I accept the result, but clearly the opinion of many millions has now changed. It would be undemocratic to pretend that this hasn't happened and demand that we execute the result of a vote which is clearly no longer representative.

It seems like 'democracy' only when it's convenient to be honest.

 

And why oh why did you feel like you had to end that comment with a personal attack? Spoilt children. 50% of the population now don't want to leave, compared to 40% that do. But they're all "spoilt children" because you don't happen to agree (despite claiming to have voted stay).

 

---------- Post added 17-12-2017 at 14:12 ----------

 

The electorate were lied to, that's been clear for a long time.

 

How can you make this claim, it flies in the face of reality.

Yes there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Both campaigns were poor. You continue to have no respect for the wishes of those honest people who voted to leave the EU, who haven't changed their minds and were on the winning side of the democratic real referendum vote. Despite your whinging, Father Christmas isn't going to give you another EU referendum and isn't really going to go down any chimneys to deliver selfish children any presents.

[Car Boot 10]

I accept the result, but clearly the opinion of many millions has now changed. It would be undemocratic to pretend that this hasn't happened and demand that we execute the result of a vote which is clearly no longer representative.

 

I don't believe that the opinions on Brexit of "many millions" has changed. And nor should you. The survey for 'The Independent' by BMG Research, which showed a 10 per cent lead for Remain, polled just 1,400 people.

 

BMG Research head of polling, Dr Michael Turner, stated:

 

“However, readers should note that digging deeper into the data reveals that this shift has come predominantly from those who did not actually vote in the 2016 referendum, with around nine in ten Leave and Remain voters still unchanged in their view."

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-latest-poll-remain-ten-points-leave-bmg-a8114406.html

 

It is certainly undemocratic to pretend that the opinion of many millions has changed based on a sample of just 1,400 people.

[Car Boot 10]

Current polls suggest a massive landslide for remain if the referendum were redone...

 

BMG Research/Herald Final EU Referendum Poll, 18 June 2016:

 

Remain 53.3%, Leave 46.7%.

 

BMG Research have a track record of getting it wrong.

[L00b 441]

My take on this is that non-voters were apathetic about the referendum due to not being particularly bothered about the EU one way or the other (like, I think, most people outside the Tory/UKIP hard core were, pre-referendum), but they're now realizing what's "on the end of their fork" as W.S.Burroughs might have put it. I don't think they'd still be non-voters.

I guess they're learning that not making a choice (not voting) is its own choice and carries its own consequences regardless

 

They'll be able to vote in the next referendum.

 

To re-join, in a good decade's time at least

 

Fear not, Brexiters: if we EU types get given a referendum about the UK rejoining (and I'm quietly confident several EU member states will do so), rest assured I'll be voting against it

Edited December 17, 2017 by L00b

[Car Boot 10]

All of the polling before the referendum showed that Remain had the most support.

 

That's why the out of touch Remainer metropolitan elite were so shocked and unbelieving of the result.

 

Polling misled the Remainers before the vote. And it seems it's still showing them what they want to see, rather than reality - which is that the majority of the electorate are firmly opposed to the EU.

[Lockdoctor 10]

All of the polling before the referendum showed that Remain had the most support.

 

That's why the out of touch Remainer metropolitan elite were so shocked and unbelieving of the result.

 

Polling misled the Remainers before the vote. And it seems it's still showing them what they want to see, rather than reality - which is that the majority of the electorate are firmly opposed to the EU.

You've hit the nail on the head. Not many people thought or believed the democratic people would vote to leave the EU and the result was a huge shock to the whole World let alone the people in the UK. The remain campaign had a huge advantage with the UK Prime Minister at the time leading the campaign. The people responsible for the shock result are the EU leaders themselves. If the EU leaders had given Cameron something worthwhile like real reforms after all those meetings, then the result most likely would have been different.

[Car Boot 10]

Current polls suggest a massive landslide for remain if the referendum were redone...

 

Polling indicated that Remain would easily win the most votes in the EU referendum.

 

Leave actually polled 1,269,501 votes MORE than Remain.

 

Polling suggested that Remain should have won over a million more votes than it actually did.

[I1L2T3 10]

I see that even the Express itself is reporting the latest poll findings, and they even have some analysis of them:

 

"... this shift has come predominantly from those who did not actually vote in the 2016 referendum, with around nine in ten Leave and Remain voters still unchanged in their view.

 

“Our polling suggests that about a year ago, those who did not vote in the referendum were broadly split, but today's poll shows that they are now overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU, by a margin of more than four to one.”

 

My take on this is that non-voters were apathetic about the referendum due to not being particularly bothered about the EU one way or the other (like, I think, most people outside the Tory/UKIP hard core were, pre-referendum), but they're now realizing what's "on the end of their fork" as W.S.Burroughs might have put it. I don't think they'd still be non-voters.

 

Plus - and there is no way to put this nicely and trust me I am taking no delight in it - hundreds of thosands of leave voters are already dead and have been replaced with young voters who overwhelmingly support remain.

 

Five years down the line Brexit is going to look like the worst idea ever from a voter demographic perspective.

 

And to their credit the other EU countries are steering a course that will allow us back in with minimum fuss.

 

---------- Post added 17-12-2017 at 16:20 ----------

 

Polling indicated that Remain would easily win the most votes in the EU referendum.

 

Leave actually polled 1,269,501 votes MORE than Remain.

 

Polling suggested that Remain should have won over a million more votes than it actually did.

 

But that was in 2016.

 

It was just a snapshot. Things have moved on and the will of the people is very different now.

 

You see.....democracy does not work by anchoring to views at specific points in time. Views change and our democratic representatives have to change with them.

 

Let’s have a soft Brexit and take it from there. It’s the fairest solution.

Edited December 17, 2017 by I1L2T3