Another vote t'other side of the Border.

[Justin Smith]

It's a poll that you've selectively interpreted to man what you want .

 

Er, no I`m not. How can I be "interpreting" only 15% of voters put Europe in their top three of concerns any other way than, well, 85% put Europe 4th or lower on their list of concerns ?

 

I knew exactly what I was voting for.

Point out where it said "Kind of half leave the EU" on your ballot paper.

 

If the case for holding another Scexit referendum is based on Brexit then it makes zero sense to hold another vote mid-way through the negotiations.

If the Scottish are leaving then there's a string case against them participating in the process. So they should go now.

If they're seriously considering staying, then best they make that decision once things are settled between the UK and the EU.

Either early our late make sense. In the middle is just the worst.

 

Nobody is suggesting that you personally were doing anything other than voting for a hard Brexit. I`d go further, I`d guess that comfortably over half (possibly as high as 70 or 80% ? ) of those who voted to Leave were doing the same thing. But, as you know full well, the result was 52/48. So it`d have to have been 96% or more that voted as you did for it to be a majority for your interpretation. That, I would respectively, but firmly, suggest, is highly unlikely.

 

The Scots have more about them than us, they`d like to know the terms before deciding. Anyone with any sense would, apart from hard core Brexiteers, the Daily Mail, the Daily Express or the Sun.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Justin Smith

[unbeliever]

Er, no I`m not. How can I be "interpreting" only 15% of voters put Europe in their top three of concerns any other way than, well, 85% put Europe 4th or lower on their list of concerns ?

 

 

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3447/Economy-immigration-and-healthcare-are-Britons-top-three-issues-deciding-general-election-vote.aspx

The question posed in 2014 was "Looking ahead to the next general election, which, if any, issues do you think will be very important to you in helping you decide which party to vote for?"

31% for economy

30% immigration/asylum

23% education

13% benefits

12% foreign affairs

11% europe

 

This was not a matter of ranking items in order of importance. It was a question of what was likely to change peoples' votes. Only 11% thought that europe would change their vote.

With only 2 pro-EU parties standing any chance of forming a government and 5 of the 6 major and minor parties supporting EU membership what do you expect?

Now if you had a poll asking the direct question which you seem interested in that would be one thing. But you don't. You're making an inference and I reject it.

 

 

Nobody is suggesting that you personally were doing anything other than voting for a hard Brexit. I`d go further, I`d guess that comfortably over half (possibly as high as 70 or 80% ? ) of those who voted to Leave were doing the same thing. But, as you know full well, the result was 52/48. So it`d have to have been 96% or more that voted as you did for it to be a majority for your interpretation. That, I would respectively, but firmly, suggest, is highly unlikely.

 

The Scots have more about them than us, they`d like to know the terms before deciding. Anyone with any sense would, apart from hard core Brexiteers, the Daily Mail, the Daily Express or the Sun.

 

How many of the remain supporter do you suppose would agree that if we're leaving, we should leave completely and not dangle half-in and half-out? I suspect a lot. I shall look for numbers.

 

Also. Point out where it said "Kind of half leave the EU" on your ballot paper.

 

 

Edit: Okay that wasn't hard.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/01/18/public-back-brexit-plan-think-eu-will-nix-it/

The people are in clear support of the government's plan.

82% of leavers and 34% of remainers for leaving the single market: total=59%

76% of leavers and 39% of remainers for leaving the customs union: total=58%

What say you to that my good man?

Edited March 14, 2017 by unbeliever

[melthebell]

‘Divisive’ referendum ‘will cause huge economic uncertainty’ says woman enacting divisive referendum causing huge economic uncertainty

 

 

 

 

http://newsthump.com/2017/03/14/divisive-referendum-will-cause-huge-economic-uncertainty-says-woman-enacting-divisive-referendum-causing-huge-economic-uncertainty/

[Justin Smith]

How many of the remain supporter do you suppose would agree that if we're leaving, we should leave completely and not dangle half-in and half-out? I suspect a lot. I shall look for numbers.

 

Also. Point out where it said "Kind of half leave the EU" on your ballot paper.

 

 

Edit: Okay that wasn't hard.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/01/18/public-back-brexit-plan-think-eu-will-nix-it/

The people are in clear support of the government's plan.

82% of leavers and 34% of remainers for leaving the single market: total=59%

76% of leavers and 39% of remainers for leaving the customs union: total=58%

What say you to that my good man?

 

I say it rather depends on what comes out of it all doesn`t it ? It seems totally illogical to me. How could anyone vote to stay in the EU but actually want to come out of the single market. Can you explain that one to me ? Unless too many have been reading the Mail or Express of course.....

[Hairyloon]

It's a poll that you've selectively interpreted to man what you want.

 

I knew exactly what I was voting for.

Did you know it was an advisory referendum, or are you, like so many quitlings, in denial about that?

 

If the case for holding another Scexit referendum is based on Brexit then it makes zero sense to hold another vote mid-way through the negotiations.

It makes perfect sense: we know who is doing the negotiating, we know their track record on general competence and we know their intentions: they can make a reasoned judgement on the likely outcome.

If the Scottish are leaving then there's a string case against them participating in the process. So they should go now.

They're excluded from the negotiations anyway so what difference does it make?

 

---------- Post added 14-03-2017 at 12:12 ----------

 

Edit: Okay that wasn't hard.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/01/18/public-back-brexit-plan-think-eu-will-nix-it/

I thought we had a universal agreement across this board that yougov polls are not worth a candle.

[unbeliever]

I say it rather depends on what comes out of it all doesn`t it ? It seems totally illogical to me. How could anyone vote to stay in the EU but actually want to come out of the single market. Can you explain that one to me ? Unless too many have been reading the Mail or Express of course.....

 

Yes. It's perfectly simple. They voted to remain but were never entirely sure about the matter. Now that the decision is made they think it should be done properly rather than faked.

It's exactly what I expected to find.

It doesn't help you that reality chose to invalidate a good portion of the remain fear-mongering. I strongly suspect that a good portion of these 30-odd% of remain voters would vote with me if there were a do-over.

Edited March 14, 2017 by unbeliever

[Justin Smith]

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3447/Economy-immigration-and-healthcare-are-Britons-top-three-issues-deciding-general-election-vote.aspx

The question posed in 2014 was "Looking ahead to the next general election, which, if any, issues do you think will be very important to you in helping you decide which party to vote for?"

31% for economy

30% immigration/asylum

23% education

13% benefits

12% foreign affairs

11% europe

 

This was not a matter of ranking items in order of importance. It was a question of what was likely to change peoples' votes. Only 11% thought that europe would change their vote.

With only 2 pro-EU parties standing any chance of forming a government and 5 of the 6 major and minor parties supporting EU membership what do you expect?

Now if you had a poll asking the direct question which you seem interested in that would be one thing. But you don't. You're making an inference and I reject it.

 

Which bit of this do you reject :

 

Which are they most important issues affecting you and your family ? :

10% said Europe

 

Which are they most important issues affecting the country ?

15% said Europe

 

Basically UB, to you and a significant minority of (generally older) people the EU has always been a big issue. But to most people it simply wasn`t. That poll simply reflects my own experience. There was absolutely no need for a referendum for most people, other than Tories wanting to nick a few votes off UKIP. And for the Tories to now say they didn`t think there is much support for a referendum in Scotland now is appalling hypocrisy, I don`t understand why you can`t admit that.

 

---------- Post added 14-03-2017 at 12:16 ----------

 

Yes. It's perfectly simple. They voted to remain but were never entirely sure about the matter. Now that the decision is made they think it should be done properly rather than faked.

It's exactly what I expected to find.

It doesn't help you that reality chose to invalidate a good portion of the remain fear-mongering. I strongly suspect that a good portion of these 30-odd% of remain voters would vote with me if there were a do-over.

 

Can I quote you on that in a year or so ?

[unbeliever]

Which bit of this do you reject :

 

Which are they most important issues affecting you and your family ? :

10% said Europe

 

Which are they most important issues affecting the country ?

15% said Europe

 

Basically UB, to you and a significant minority of (generally older) people the EU has always been a big issue. But to most people it simply wasn`t. That poll simply reflects my own experience. There was absolutely no need for a referendum for most people, other than Tories wanting to nick a few votes off UKIP. And for the Tories to now say they didn`t think there is much support for a referendum in Scotland now is appalling hypocrisy, I don`t understand why you can`t admit that.

 

I've already explained why the poll you quite doesn't mean what you think it does. It's clear that you disagree.

It's all beside the point anyway. The government is pursuing a real Brexit with the support of nearly 60% of the people. It's settled and there's no question on any level as to whether it's the will of the people.

[Justin Smith]

I've already explained why the poll you quite doesn't mean what you think it does. It's clear that you disagree.

It's all beside the point anyway. The government is pursuing a real Brexit with the support of nearly 60% of the people. It's settled and there's no question on any level as to whether it's the will of the people.

 

In the case of this thread I thought we were actually discussing the hypocrisy of the Govt in claiming there was no will for a Scottish referendum on their independence ?

[unbeliever]

In the case of this thread I thought we were actually discussing the hypocrisy of the Govt in claiming there was no will for a Scottish referendum on their independence ?

 

This government claim does rather have the virtue of being true.

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/should-there-be-another-independence-referendum-before-the-brexit-negotiations#line

 

But by all means let's have the vote. When Sturgeon loses she'll resign and we won't have to hear her any more.