Understanding the universe.

[Phanerothyme 12]

It boils down to angels on heads of pins, and dancing.

 

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the mind is the thing that you can no-longer step outside of and observe, but that is still within you, and a part of which directs your conscious focus. It resides, we assume in the brain and once again, we assume that the whole mind (conscious and otherwise) is the electro-chemical dynamic state supported by the complex physical/biological matrix of the nervous system.

 

I think those are fair assumptions. So ...

 

How does that model give rise to qualia and intentionality, and what indeed are they?

 

Alternative model? Same question!

 

I do keep bringing them up, because I think they're probably important to deal with in this discussion, such as it is.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Phanerothyme
amended in light of further discussion

[RootsBooster 24]

It boils down to angels on heads of pins, and dancing.

 

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the mind is the thing that you can no-longer step outside of and observe, but that is still within you, and a part of which directs your conscious focus. It resides, we assume, chiefly in the brain, but more exactly throughout the nervous system, and once again, we assume that the whole mind (conscious and otherwise) is the electro-chemical dynamic state supported by the near-infinitely complex physical/biological matrix of the nervous system.

 

I think those are fair assumptions. So ...

 

How does that model give rise to qualia and intentionality, and what indeed are they?

 

Alternative model? Same question!

 

I do keep bringing them up, because I think they're probably important to deal with in this discussion, such as it is.

Why do you think it's fair to assume that the mind resides 'more exactly' throughout the nervous system?

[Cyclone 10]

People who have severed spinal cords don't lose part of their mind.

The spinal cord and extended nervous system beyond that does many things, but there's no evidence that it forms part of the mind, conscious or otherwise.

 

I'd also disagree with near infinitely complex. It's merely very complex.

 

How does the "model" of mind give rise to qualia (which are experiences? Experiencing a single thing?) and intention, ie the desire to act, formed into a thought and an intention to do so?

Is that the question?

I could only answer that in the most vague terms, but they all come down to the network of cells, chemicals, electrical signals.

How does an ant decide where to go to forage, same way, just less complexity behind it.

[ENG601PM 10]

How does an ant decide where to go to forage, same way, just less complexity behind it.

An ant doesn't decide. It autonomically reacts to a combination of circumstances.

 

Much modern neuroscience is suggesting that humans do just the same, albeit on a more sophisticated level. You, me, everyone, doesn't make a decision, we're slaves to circumstances.

 

If that turns out to be so it gives Dutch's story a few very basic issues because he / she isn't even in the most basic level of control, never mind achieving some higher state of consciousness available to only a select few. All he / she has some up with is that his circumstances make him her even more deluded than the rest of us.

 

If I may change the subject slightly away from Dutch's karma, this theory does lead us to the conclusion that Hitler, Stalin and Mao were not evil because they had no choice, just like a leopard has to kill an antelope. Discuss.

[dutch 68]

So what is it that is aware, if it's not your mind?

 

Your mind is an "it". Your awareness is not an "it". The awareness is there, conscious or unconscious but when you see it consciously is more like a free unbound borderless energy.

Mind is there, it works, very hard, sometimes too hard. Mind has taken a primary front position in our lives. So how to understand something that is beyond mind? For that the physical mind needs to slow down and wait for little meditative silent gaps to arrive so we can again see this non physical awareness. The mind keeps going it stays unconscious, the silent gaps can grow and become continues.

You are your awareness, just the unconscious mind keeps playing tricks telling you to look the other way.

 

Mind manipulates many natural feelings and emotions. Things like love become marriage, relationships at home and work become twisted, countries start arguing over simple agreements. Mind can help and assist in certain situations like being a MP in parliament or a doctor operating, a gardener will not need the serious mind much.

This mind is very frightened to lose control and tries to tell you who and what you are, mind tries to fool you there is nothing else. When meditation happens you can eventually really see who you are and the mind is angry, it tries everything tricky it can do to try to distract you. But eventually mind has to give up and you see both, the non physical universal energy, and the physical matter. Then you are a complete awareness and mind is no longer the boss in your house.

 

I would like to thank everyone who has had the courage to respond, leave feedback and questions. Most people don’t like this topic and prefer to live a boring life. It may sound like I am the one who knows it all but I’m only an ordinary simple person, everyday comes with new enlightening surprises.

My bags are almost packed, see you later.

Hey………. I meet some monkeys out there I’ll try to explain meditation to them, or give them some bananas.

Edited November 16, 2017 by dutch

[RootsBooster 24]

Your mind is an "it". Your awareness is not an "it". The awareness is there, conscious or unconscious but when you see it consciously is more like a free unbound borderless energy.

Mind is there, it works, very hard, sometimes too hard. Mind has taken a primary front position in our lives. So how to understand something that is beyond mind? For that the physical mind needs to slow down and wait for little meditative silent gaps to arrive so we can again see this non physical awareness. The mind keeps going it stays unconscious, the silent gaps can grow and become continues.

You are your awareness, just the unconscious mind keeps playing tricks telling you to look the other way.

 

Mind manipulates many natural feelings and emotions. Things like love become marriage, relationships at home and work become twisted, countries start arguing over simple agreements. Mind can help and assist in certain situations like being a MP in parliament or a doctor operating, a gardener will not need the serious mind much.

This mind is very frightened to lose control and tries to tell you who and what you are, mind tries to fool you there is nothing else. When meditation happens you can eventually really see who you are and the mind is angry, it tries everything tricky it can do to try to distract you. But eventually mind has to give up and you see both, the non physical universal energy, and the physical matter. Then you are a complete awareness and mind is no longer the boss in your house.

 

I would like to thank everyone who has had the courage to respond, leave feedback and questions. Most people don’t like this topic and prefer to live a boring life. It may sound like I am the one who knows it all but I’m only an ordinary simple person, everyday comes with new enlightening surprises.

My bags are almost packed, see you later.

Hey………. I meet some monkeys out there I’ll try to explain meditation to them, or give them some bananas.

A lot of talk about the mind there, pretty much the opposite of what Cyclone asked.

[dutch 68]

A lot of talk about the mind there, pretty much the opposite of what Cyclone asked.

 

I'm almost gone, but don't worry, I'll bring you some bananas next week on the way back.

[Phanerothyme 12]

Why do you think it's fair to assume that the mind resides 'more exactly' throughout the nervous system?

 

Because the brain is a subset of the nervous system.

 

---------- Post added 16-11-2017 at 17:53 ----------

 

People who have severed spinal cords don't lose part of their mind.

What makes you say that? Evidence or belief?

 

The spinal cord and extended nervous system beyond that does many things, but there's no evidence that it forms part of the mind, conscious or otherwise.

yes there is - and it's obvious first principles stuff.

 

Unless you have no input whatsoever from any part of your body, and your brain is isolated from all nervous input from outside the brain, the brain-state (the mind) is being changed and modified continuously by sensory input.

 

I'd also disagree with near infinitely complex. It's merely very complex.

Fair point. Perhaps even beyond 'very complex'. Can I venture "extraordinarily complex"?

How does the "model" of mind give rise to qualia (which are experiences? Experiencing a single thing?) and intention, ie the desire to act, formed into a thought and an intention to do so?

Is that the question?

Qualia is a slippery term at the best of times, and contentious too. But these two things are mysterious to me - the experience of experience in the moment. All these sensory inputs, changing the brain-state, fine - but why do I taste the sharp, sweet fragrant strawberry flavour ? Either there is a subjective experience or there isn't. If there is, then it must be separate from that which it experiences. If there isn't, well ...

 

And intentionality. Is the will to action simply the selfishness of the genome expressed in very complex terms - and equally blindly?

I could only answer that in the most vague terms, but they all come down to the network of cells, chemicals, electrical signals.

How does an ant decide where to go to forage, same way, just less complexity behind it.

 

Well exactly.

 

That's the conclusion I'm trying to escape here.

 

Because I think that it leads inexorably to that posted by ENG601PM just above. Unless there's a theory of free will I'm unaware of, it's pretty much simply an illusion, that our conscious "mind" goes along with in a perpetual state of post-hoc rationalisation.

 

Tell me it ain't so.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Phanerothyme

[Cyclone 10]

Your mind is an "it". Your awareness is not an "it".

 

What is aware? Where does it reside, how does it work.

[RootsBooster 24]

Because the brain is a subset of the nervous system.

 

I see, so if Caucasian is a 'subset' of Homosapien, then more exactly Homosapiens are all Caucasian?

*Coughs*

 

---------- Post added 16-11-2017 at 22:33 ----------

 

What makes you say that? Evidence or belief?

[/Quote]

For me, evidence. When you've spent as many years as I have visiting the Northern General's spinal injuries unit you see more than a few examples of people who've lost most of their nervous system (other than the brain) and lost none of the mind. If the mind resided throughout the nervous system then much of it would be lost when physically severed.

yes there is - and it's obvious first principles stuff.

 

Unless you have no input whatsoever from any part of your body, and your brain is isolated from all nervous input from outside the brain, the brain-state (the mind) is being changed and modified continuously by sensory input.

 

Altering the mind through restricting input is a different ballgame to actually losing part of the mind through removing part or most of the nervous system. As the forum's most recognised Galactic referee, I'm disallowing that movement of the goalposts.

[Phanerothyme 12]

I see, so if Caucasian is a 'subset' of Homosapien, then more exactly Homosapiens are all Caucasian?

*Coughs*

 

---------- Post added 16-11-2017 at 22:33 ----------

 

For me, evidence. When you've spent as many years as I have visiting the Northern General's spinal injuries unit you see more than a few examples of people who've lost most of their nervous system (other than the brain) and lost none of the mind. If the mind resided throughout the nervous system then much of it would be lost when physically severed.

 

Altering the mind through restricting input is a different ballgame to actually losing part of the mind through removing part or most of the nervous system. As the forum's most recognised Galactic referee, I'm disallowing that movement of the goalposts.

 

You're quite right, of course.

 

I have edited the post accordingly.

[petemcewan 27]

https://www.wired.com/2014/01/measure-magnetic-field/

 

The Earth's Magnetic Field.

Edited November 19, 2017 by petemcewan