Ukip. All discussion here please.

[colinut 10]

Farage getting creamed for the racist **** he is:

 

Edited May 20, 2014 by colinut
forgot to add "racist ****"

[Mr Bloke 1,445]

A bit like Labour supporters ignoring the fact that their party of choice took us into an illegal war that led to the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of people, ruined the lives of countless more, brought terrorism to our shores and left the Muslim community isolated and untrusted. Oh look, Labour will increase the minimum wage... I'll vote for them.

labour? illegal war? terrorism? muslim community? minimum wage?

 

Are you having trouble finding a thread that's not locked too?

[L00b 441]

If the EU stuck to the core business of facilitating business then there would not be the level of anti-EU sentiment we now have.

Be careful not to mistake a protest and/or xenophobic anti-immigrant vote for an outright 'anti-EU' vote

It is ever creeping federalisation that is the problem.

Such as?

The EU has started dictating how we must manage our borders (people not goods),

How so?

what benefits we have to pay to non-citizens

Seems I need to repost my earlier information the UK's Habitual Residency Test - here goes:

We are fast descending into baseless rethoric. Time to try and inform the debate a bit more. Again.

 

Regarding the availability of benefits to EU immigrants in the UK, have any of the pro-UKIP/"let's kick dem furreiners out" camp heard of the Habitual Residence Test?

 

You know, that UK-specific administrative test to which immigrants are subjected for qualifying for benefits, which really irks Brussels as additional to standard EU requirements (and thus deemed illegal by Brussels) and has now been challenged before the ECJ?

 

If not, start here. From the CAB, sources don't come any more authoritative or impartial.

 

For some practical interpretation, see here.

 

I'd also suggest the wiki HRT entry, according to which

 

Whilst I am here, regarding negotiation-rather-than-exit, and the specific issue of immigration within that, I have told you many a time already that Cameron and Merkel started working on Brussels quite a while ago, and that was the basis of Cameron's referendum pledge (i.e. a very carefully calculated political risk with a 90+% certainty of outcome/delivery - politicians at that level don't take any other form of risk ): here's another teaser about such ongoing background policies in action. From the Grauniad no less.

and has imposed unpopular human rights laws.

Such as?

Cameron and the Tories recognise they need to negotiate with the EU on these issues or there is a real prospect that Britain would vote to leave the EU at a referendum. The EU aren't playing ball though because they want to waiting and see what the likely outcome will be at the next general election.

I think we both know that this outcome is a foregone conclusion. UKIP and other countries nationalist/extremist parties (FN, Golden Dawn, etc, etc.) will have their expected field day on Thursday, yet still represent a minority at the EU Parliament, and the EPP-PES bloc will have a free run in Strasbourg for the duration of the legislature.

 

The EU have already gone on the record and agreed with Cameron that there is room for renegotiation about the UK's membership, btw:

but I don't think the certain benefits that do come from being in the EU should come at any cost.[/Quote]It's never come "at any cost", and as regards the "actual" cost, renegotiation has been ongoing awhile by Cameron hand-in-hand with Merkel, and is still ongoing as we post (closing stages, I expect), as last acknowleged by Barroso yesterday: when Barroso starts telling the world that "there's room for the UK to be a special member in the EU, with special conditions that are not to be given to all the other members", mere days after Merkel announced what 'special conditions' Germany also wants (and which are all pretty similar to the UK's, e.g. as regards controlled EU immigration and whatnot), you just know that the renegotiations are just about done, because what Barroso just did is to start laying the ground for the relevant 'this-is-the-deal' annoucements to come from the next President of the Commission (who will then be in the politically-convenient position of being able to 'load' his predecessor Barroso for anything the EU 'loses'...that's how politics work in real life).

[source = http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10480155, post #361](won't let me quote)

 

A strong UKIP vote on Thursday, and decent vote retention thereafter, will actually help strengthen Cameron's negotiating hand. It is something of a paradox but a strong vote for UKIP might present the best chance of us staying in the EU!!!

All the above said, that is a fair argument, and I'm in agreement (...but not to the point of voting for UKIP, of course).

How deluded can a post be?

It's a soft brick wall, we're all right

Sorrell said there were a number of "black and grey swans" – hidden or half-hidden risks – that could derail an already tentative recovery.

The biggest risk of a UK exit, is that it would eventually result in a EUSSR. That's a real risk, but still being discussed very sotto vocce by Merkel and a few others.

 

If Putin is still in charge by then, then parallels that have been drawn (on the back of the current tides of nationalisms and calls for isolationism following the global economical crisis) with the 1930s period may prove on the ball.

 

And Australia and Canada will look awfully tempting to me by then. I can get in either for the asking, will be looking to take a decision after the referendum.

Edited May 20, 2014 by L00b

[chalga 10]

 

Cameron and the Tories recognise they need to negotiate with the EU on these issues or there is a real prospect that Britain would vote to leave the EU at a referendum. The EU aren't playing ball though because they want to waiting and see what the likely outcome will be at the next general election.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/17/david-cameron-ukip-germans

 

They aren't waiting at all..........they are telling him now.

[Doom 10]

You can only renegotiate if the other side want to play ball.

 

I guess two things may dictate this:

 

1. How desperate the other countries are to keep us in the EU and

 

2. The strength of feeling in this country against the current set-up.

 

If they are desperate to keep us on board, then a strong showing by UKIP should strengthen Cameron's hand when it comes to negotiating, because he will be able to point to the very real chance that the people of this country may choose to opt out altogether.

 

Regards

 

Doom

[chalga 10]

You can only renegotiate if the other side want to play ball.

 

I guess two things may dictate this:

 

1. How desperate the other countries are to keep us in the EU and

 

2. The strength of feeling in this country against the current set-up.

 

If they are desperate to keep us on board, then a strong showing by UKIP should strengthen Cameron's hand when it comes to negotiating, because he will be able to point to the very real chance that the people of this country may choose to opt out altogether.

 

Regards

 

Doom

 

The Germans have already accused Cameron of trying to appease UKIP.............if Cameron pointed to UKIP and then said to them give me what I want because they are threatening me,the Germans and the rest of the EU would also in effect be appeasing UKIP........do you think they are likely to do that?

[Doom 10]

Paxman v Farage:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0AGUooNdPk

 

Some tough questioning as ever, but I thought Farage held his own.

 

I think he does make a good point about those of a certain generation being set in their ways. I would think there are a lot of older Councillors from all parties who are homophobic, although many probably keep their views private.

 

He also repeats the point I made earlier about the Tories, Liberals or Labour having 17 councillors arrested, charged or convicted, including 1 for child pornography, yet this hasn't made it into the national media.

 

Regards

 

Doom

[esme 10]

Mod Note

 

Posts have been reported for referring to other party policies, so far this seems to have been used to compare or contrast them with UKIP policies and as such we'll allow this as long as it isn't used as a means of derailing the discussion.

 

However, please remember this thread is for discussions relating to UKIP and it's policies, while some comparison with other parties is inevitable please try to keep this to a minimum and discuss other party policies in their appropriate threads.

[Doom 10]

The Germans have already accused Cameron of trying to appease UKIP.............if Cameron pointed to UKIP and then said to them give me what I want because they are threatening me,the Germans and the rest of the EU would also in effect be appeasing UKIP........do you think they are likely to do that?

 

It's about appeasing the British public and keeping them on board, if the EU do want us in the club.

 

If they think the British public are on board regardless, then they won't need appeasing.

 

A strong UKIP vote suggests there's a lot of the British public who aren't on board with the current set-up.

 

I guess it could become a bit of a game of poker.

 

Regards

 

Doom

[Anna Glypta 10]

This post is off topic.

 

It belongs in the Labour Discussion thread.

 

But UKIP didn't take us into an illegal war so it belongs here.

 

---------- Post added 20-05-2014 at 14:38 ----------

 

Farage getting creamed for the racist **** he is:

 

 

Yes I spotted UKIP were barely 5 points clear in the EU polls.

 

---------- Post added 20-05-2014 at 14:43 ----------

 

It's about appeasing the British public and keeping them on board, if the EU do want us in the club.

 

If they think the British public are on board regardless, then they won't need appeasing.

 

A strong UKIP vote suggests there's a lot of the British public who aren't on board with the current set-up.

 

I guess it could become a bit of a game of poker.

 

Regards

 

Doom

 

That sums it up for me. UKIP getting a large chunk of the vote in the EU elections sends a message to Europe that they cannot take the UK membership for granted. But UKIP cannot deliver on that in a General Election. The Tories are guaranteeing a referendum should they win the election. So my choice is to vote UKIP in EU elections, and probably Tory in General Election. I might vote Lib/Dem in the council election because I can't see the point of voting UKIP or Tory there. Depending on how the EU respond to all this will effect how I vote in a referendum.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Anna Glypta

[Zamo 10]

Mod Note

 

Posts have been reported for referring to other party policies, so far this seems to have been used to compare or contrast them with UKIP policies and as such we'll allow this as long as it isn't used as a means of derailing the discussion.

 

However, please remember this thread is for discussions relating to UKIP and it's policies, while some comparison with other parties is inevitable please try to keep this to a minimum and discuss other party policies in their appropriate threads.

 

Common sense prevails. How can it be off topic to counter accusations made against one party and/or its supporters with an example of how other parties and/or its supporters are guilty of the same?

 

I'm not sure whether this one thread per party idea is good or not but we should at least give it a go. I don't believe it has been decided to further any particular political bias by mods... it is simply an attempt to tidy things up and make moderator life easier. Bit childish to be hitting the report button in order to waste mod time making a silly point.

[Lotusflower 10]

Some facts and opinions on the subject at hand.

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/02/ukip-party-bigots-lets-look-evidence