Would national service make sense again?

[lipschitz 12]

I just wondered if anyone on here had any comments to pass on the re-introduction of national service. I was chatting to some old guys who had done national service years ago and they were relaying stories of how they went in as boys and came out as men. All the usual sort of things guys like this say about national service. I wondered if any of this would translate to society today. There are lots of teenagers out of work, not in education or training, some of whom are getting into trouble and have little respect for anyone around them.

It would seem to be a good idea to draft into national service all the teens who are not bound for university or on vocational training courses and give them a good old fashioned dose of military style training. Would it teach them respect for themselves and others around them or just produce fitter, better trained thugs two years down the line?

[MizsterJones 10]

I believe they are making a considerable number of our armed forces redundant

[aliceBB 10]

I just wondered if anyone on here had any comments to pass on the re-introduction of national service. I was chatting to some old guys who had done national service years ago and they were relaying stories of how they went in as boys and came out as men. All the usual sort of things guys like this say about national service. I wondered if any of this would translate to society today. There are lots of teenagers out of work, not in education or training, some of whom are getting into trouble and have little respect for anyone around them.

It would seem to be a good idea to draft into national service all the teens who are not bound for university or on vocational training courses and give them a good old fashioned dose of military style training. Would it teach them respect for themselves and others around them or just produce fitter, better trained thugs two years down the line?

 

'Old fashioned military style training' is designed to produce large numbers of young men who obey orders unquestioningly develop pack loyalty and can inflict violence on other human beings when ordered to do so. Is that what we want? That's obviously how an army operates, and armies have had centuries of practice in channelling testosterone surges into behaviours they want and punishing behaviours they do not want. As a total institution, it's pretty successful. (And not just in getting not very bright young men to kill other people; they have an impressive record in improving adult literacy rates, for example - the work like hell on motivation first). The problems start when you let them back into society and they have to make decisions and exert self-discipline for themselves. A surprising number of homeless street-sleepers are ex-forces guys who could not readjust to that challenge.

 

I have noticed that when school-disaffected youths go into the Army (as opposed to well-adjusted 16/17 year olds), it is often because they crave structure like an addict craves a dose of heroin - a structure which is lacking in their chaotic home lives; even the structure which school endeavours to impose isn't enough. It needs to be total, or they cannot function. Army life is perfect for them - until they come out.

 

So although I would not rule out NS per se, I wouldn't want to see square bashing and endless yelling and polishing of shoes. There are much more productive ways of employing the youth of the nation - and it would need to be tailored to their aptitudes. Outdoor pursuits might be a much better for all-round toughening up and initiative-building in troubled and troublesome youths, rather like the programmes the eccentric but admirable Lt Col Blashford-Snell set up in the 80s for just that purpose. Anyone remember him?

Edited February 3, 2014 by aliceBB

[Kidorry 189]

Not just in getting the youths to shoot at people

 

'Old fashioned military style training' is designed to produce large numbers of young men who obey orders unquestioningly develop pack loyalty and can inflict violence on other human beings when ordered to do so. Is that what we want? That's obviously how an army operates, and armies have had centuries of practice in channelling testosterone surges into behaviours they want and punishing behaviours they do not want. As a total institution, it's pretty successful. (And not just in getting not very bright young men to kill other people; they have an impressive record in improving adult literacy rates, for example - the work like hell on motivation first). The problems start when you let them back into society and they have to make decisions and exert self-discipline for themselves. A surprising number of homeless street-sleepers are ex-forces guys who could not readjust to that challenge. I have noticed that when school-disaffected youths go into the Army (as opposed to well-adjusted 16/17 year olds), it is often because they crave structure like an addict craves a dose of heroin - a structure which is lacking in their chaotic home lives; even the structure which school endeavours to impose isn't enough. It needs to be total, or they cannot function. Army life is perfect for them - until they come out.

So although I would not rule out NS per se, I wouldn't want to see square bashing and endless yelling and polishing of shoes. There are much more productive ways of employing the youth of the nation - and it would need to be tailored to their aptitudes. Outdoor pursuits might be a much better for all-round toughening up and initiative-building in troubled and troublesome youths, rather like the programmes the eccentric but admirable Lt Col Blashford-Snell set up in the 80s for just that purpose. Anyone remember him?

 

Whilst I agree with most of what you say I tend to differ from your opinion of when they come out of the army because compared to the numbers in the armed forces this is only a very small minority.I admit that when we came out there were plenty of jobs to go to,not like now.

[Mister M 1,636]

Not a great fan but as long as it wasn't just limited to the children of the poor or working class, but everyone's kids.

[aliceBB 10]

Whilst I agree with most of what you say I tend to differ from your opinion of when they come out of the army because compared to the numbers in the armed forces this is only a very small minority.I admit that when we came out there were plenty of jobs to go to,not like now.

 

My point was that ex-forces personnel are over-represented in the ranks of the homeless than the non-forces population are. 20-30% in 1997, according to this report, although I believe a number of charities have taken action since then:

http://www.riverside.org.uk/PDF/2504_RSD_A4_exArmy_report_hires%20FINAL.pdf

[L00b 441]

Would it teach them respect for themselves and others around them or just produce fitter, better trained thugs two years down the line?

The former IMHO.

 

The issue with thugs, is that they are not born so, but are bred so, and just graduate in thuggery disciplines as time goes on. For all the rights and wrongs of the methodologies employed, the military has a long and successful track record of "cleansing the canvas" before re-painting it to its own purposes, by-and-large durably so.

 

Add to that, a year or two under the military code and the military's own special version of "justice and punishment", and it might be possible to turn around a non-trivial portion of trainee thugs. Not all, for sure, but maybe enough of them to make a noticeable difference.

 

Perhaps also, the corresponding benefit (to society) would at least partially offset the costs (to society), though it would take a fair few years of it before this can be demonstrated with evidence (if it can be demonstrated).

 

I'm not best-placed, as I was "well-adjusted" long before I did mine, and did little of it in khakis...but it did not do me any harm (other than spending a year away from the then brand new Mrs L00b), that is for sure.

Edited February 3, 2014 by L00b

[Anna B 1,417]

Am I alone in remembering early on in Cameron's stint as PM, him saying with great aplomb, that "he was bringing back National Service"?

 

Turned out that it was only for two weeks. He forgot to mention that...

[alchresearch 215]

I was chatting to some old guys who had done national service years ago and they were relaying stories of how they went in as boys and came out as men.

 

They were probably from a time when people feared and respected their elders. And said elders could dish out a bit of punishment if the youth didn't behave.

[aliceBB 10]

I was chatting to some old guys who had done national service years ago and they were relaying stories of how they went in as boys and came out as men.

 

The same could surely be said of virtually any scheme which takes 18 year olds away from Mum and Dad, exposes them to new experiences and disciplines away from home and releases them into society at age 21, able to stand on their own two feet and ready for work.

 

Going to University, for example.

 

(Except that the work isn't there when they come out).

[Vague_Boy 10]

I remember watching the "reality" series "Bad Lads Army" a few years ago. A kind of temporary return to National Service for a group of seemingly irredeemable scrotes.

 

At first it was highly amusing to see scallys who had never experienced any form of discipline in their lives being given the runaround by a retired sergeant.

 

But eventually something quite odd started to happen. The "lads" started to benefit from the experience, gaining a degree of self-discipline and self-respect. I seem to remember a couple of them signed on as regulars at the end.

 

Clearly this was bad and should not be permitted.

 

Much better to have them back on the streets, thieving and robbing. Or indeed, never to have left said streets in the first place.

[aliceBB 10]

I remember watching the "reality" series "Bad Lads Army" a few years ago. A kind of temporary return to National Service for a group of seemingly irredeemable scrotes.

 

At first it was highly amusing to see scallys who had never experienced any form of discipline in their lives being given the runaround by a retired sergeant.

 

But eventually something quite odd started to happen. The "lads" started to benefit from the experience, gaining a degree of self-discipline and self-respect. I seem to remember a couple of them signed on as regulars at the end.

 

Clearly this was bad and should not be permitted.

 

Much better to have them back on the streets, thieving and robbing. Or indeed, never to have left said streets in the first place.

 

I only wish it did have that effect. How many years ago was this, exactly? If it was pre-recession, I'd be happy to believe you that it all ended happily. If however they come out of the Army all inspired and well-disciplined and ready to launch themselves into the world of work - only to discover that it doesn't exist for them, I fear the benefits will soon turn to cynicism and evaporate. They'd be back on the streets before long.