School teachers to be paid by performance

[the_bloke]

I guess that in some things, you become more skillful and hence more valuable as you gain more experience.

 

As for sackings of teachers... that happens at the drop of a hat these days.

 

Anyway blokey, where do you work? I hear that, these days, there is limited call for folks who talk out of their backside.

 

You must have got lucky.

 

Aww bless, an insult directed at me.

 

But then if you've been teaching since in 1980s, I wouldn't expect you to have any grasp on what it's like to work in the private sector, hence the need to resort to insults.

 

If you can't see that the current pay and scaling system for teachers rewards good teachers as much as bad then you are totally blinkered I'm afraid.

 

As for suggesting teachers are fired at the drop of a hat - which may be the case for sexual or physical misconduct with pupils - do you actually know of any cases where they were fired for actually being rubbish at teaching? Surely you remember this gem of news (apologies for linking the Daily Fail): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1110942/Ofsted-said-15-000-useless-teachers-worked-schools-Nine-years-fired-Just-10.html

[zippy]

The details have not been made very clear, but my understanding of the suggestions is that they are proposing that schools will have more independent say on how teachers will progress through their scales.

 

Rather than automatic annual movement up the scale, performance will be appraised within the school (presumably against agreed targets), and increment awarded on merit.

 

I may be wrong, but if that is the case it is perfectly reasonable and represents something that teachers themselves have supported.

A majority of teachers do not like poor performers being rewarded automatically.

 

Are schools and Heads capable of implementing such systems fairly and efficiently?

I see a lot of problems.

 

also I would suggest that as 'value added' measures of performance are all ready in use in schools that these will be given greater weight than maintaining a current level of performance.

[Mr Bloom]

The way I (humbly) see it is that teachers as a whole consider themselves superior to the rest of the public sector . They just do not realise that they are alienating people and encouraging public disrespect for the public sector.

As a profession which loves the sound of their own voices may I politely suggest that they tone it down a bit ? Those who work in the private sector are , I suspect , increasingly p%$£ed off and have absolutely no respect for these so-called professionals -sorry to all genuine teachers

 

As opposed to bogus ones?

 

Are you aware that the overwhelming majority of people who decide to become teachers who have worked previously in the private sector are back in the private sector within four years of becoming teachers?

 

---------- Post added 06-12-2012 at 03:01 ----------

 

In the private sector, you are appraised (formal or not) by management and rewarded accordingly by more pay or a promotion.

 

Why should teachers be any different?

 

 

Teachers have been regularly appraised in their roles for years, but not rewarded for excellent performance in terms of pay or promotion.

 

 

 

One of my close friends is a teacher. Since becoming one, he hasn't changed schools, taught a different age group or been promoted, yet he has gone from his entry salary to earning as much as he can in his role, an increase of around £15k (I don't know his salary specifics).

 

That just looks like a system that rewards good performance just as much as mediocre performance. Why bother working hard when you know you get a nice pay rise at the end of every year regardless?

 

 

The pay for the volume of work involved and the skills needed to be a good classroom teacher is nothing short of an insult to the entire profession. The starting salary is ridiculous, add 15k to it, and it becomes less ridiculous but still pretty ridiculous. On this understanding, your friend has not been rewarded for mediocre performance but he has been witheld a decent salary and had a poor one delayed.

[Anna B]

An interesting question - Who actually grades a teacher as "good" ? Surely that would boil down to an opinion based on a ten minute observation in one lesson?

 

Who is to say that the opinion is correct ?

 

A little unfair to base a persons pay based on opinion I think !

 

Ofsted assess teacher performance, and yes it's on the strength of a 10 minute observation.

 

Most teachers know that this is an entirely faulty system which can go either way. In fact I've known 2 ofsted inspecters watch the same lesson at the same time and come out with totally different evaluations / results.

 

To judge on exam results is also flawed, as people have said, fine if you teach the A grade class, but not so if you are in charge of the C stream, though you will be probably be working harder.

 

Please don't forget that a lot of children who used to be in special schools are now in mainstream schools, and whilst this is a very positive thing in many respects, it doesn't improve exam results.

 

A school is a holistic endeavour and teachers work as a team.

 

This, as with paying people in the north less than the south, is just another way of cutting costs.

[alchresearch]

I guess that in some things, you become more skillful and hence more valuable as you gain more experience.

 

As for sackings of teachers... that happens at the drop of a hat these days.

 

Anyway blokey, where do you work? I hear that, these days, there is limited call for folks who talk out of their backside.

 

You must have got lucky.

 

I don't think there's any need for insults, what he says is pretty much spot on.

 

I've taught and been married to a teacher, her parents were teachers, and I've worked in various schools over many years, and although some teachers have it hard, it's difficult to gain sympathy when in June all they talk about is the big 3-4 week holiday they're taking in some far flung destination, and the moaning about the extra hours they have put in to complete their back-dated paperwork and lesson plans when they know Ofsted is coming, or how little they have to do to get their extra "point" for some project they've spearheaded. Its teachers like that which ruin it for the ones who really do put in the hours, the hard work, keep their lesson plans and planners up to date.

 

And if you have a bad teacher, how does the school get rid of them - by giving them glowing references or recommending them for promotion. I've seen some terrible teachers way out of their depth in the classroom where their failings have not been seen at interview or in their observed lesson where the class has been well behaved because a senior member of staff was present.

 

Would there be outrage if a mechanic only serviced your car properly, or a dentist did work on your teeth to the standard required and expected if their equivalents of Ofsted were watching?

[Steve_Grump]

Teaching is going down the tube. My 6 year old came home from school saying they had learned a new song, I asked what the song was and they sang

 

"scooby dooby doo, did a poo......etc...."

 

What the hell is being taught at school these days? Can teachers not teach the things people need to know to prepare them for the world of work?

 

when I was at school we were taught the lords prayer.

[frededwards]

If teachers are to be paid a sum related to their performance I look forward to finding out what the following will be paid.

 

The English teacher at St. Edward VII who put a smiley face and a sticky star upon my son's homework................................he was 18 and studying for his A levels!

 

An aquaintance of mine who is Head of Engineering at a school near Sheffield. This person earns £43,000 a year but doesn't know what "Threads per inch" means or how to use a Dial Test Indicator. (Both things that are taught in the first couple of weeks of an engineering apprenticeship.)

 

 

Never mind performance related pay, some teachers should be handed their P45's.

[Steve_Grump]

I think teachers at different schools should be paid differently, clearly the job is easier in some schools

 

Peter Posh from Whirlowdale is gong to be easier to teach than Tommy Troublemaker from Wybourne.

[the_bloke]

I don't think there's any need for insults, what he says is pretty much spot on.

 

Thanks

 

The pay for the volume of work involved and the skills needed to be a good classroom teacher is nothing short of an insult to the entire profession. The starting salary is ridiculous, add 15k to it, and it becomes less ridiculous but still pretty ridiculous. On this understanding, your friend has not been rewarded for mediocre performance but he has been witheld a decent salary and had a poor one delayed.

 

Like I said, i don't know his specifics, but I remember him starting teaching on 17k and now he's on 33k. Whatever he is on, it's the most he can be paid according to his pay banding. If he wants to earn more, then he'll need to get into head of year territory I believe.

 

The point is though, whilst he does work hard and loves his job, if another teacher had started at the same time as him on 17k and was incompetent, lazy and saw the job as an easy way to long summer holidays - they would also now be earning 33k!

 

This is the problem, and this is why teachers should be assessed by their in school superiors to see if their performance warrants an above inflation increase in salary.

 

The system should reward good teachers with more pay than what they get now, equally it should restrict bad teachers by not increasing their pay at all apart from inflationary rises (currently frozen).

 

No wonder some teachers are ill equipped to teach children that hard work reaps extra benefits when they don't understand the concept themselves.

[alchresearch]

Teachers strike over random drugs test call

 

Teachers at an independent special school in Derbyshire are on strike after one of them was asked to take a random drugs test.

 

Eleven teachers at the Alderwasley Hall School, which is a residential centre as well as a school, are taking action this week.

 

The union says the school's policy on drugs tests is unlawful under human rights legislation because it allegedly breaches a person's right to respect for their private life.

 

Hmm, what about a students right to be taught by someone not under the influence of drugs, or the school's right not to have the embarrassment and trouble if a teacher is found to be a drug user?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20625558

 

---------- Post added 06-12-2012 at 13:15 ----------

 

Peter Posh from Whirlowdale is gong to be easier to teach than Tommy Troublemaker from Wybourne.

 

Not always. At one school I found the best pupils were the ones from one of the worst council estates in the area.

 

The worst pupils were the ones from a private estate of 4,5, and 6 bedroom detached houses.

 

Posh does not equal wanting to learn. I was brought up on the Badger and was keen and eager to learn, as were many others from this estate.

Edited December 6, 2012 by alchresearch