spinac Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 agreed robS35. the question is not whether the driver was exceeding the speed limit, but was he driving at an appropriate speed for the conditions? I've skidded as described when under the speed limit and had no forewarning of possible black ice, but I've also seen people overtake on motorways when snow is settling and when there has been a deluge of rain where the spray from the vehicles in front reduce visibility to such a degree that overtaking puts everyone at risk. Speed limits give the maximum legal speed for good driving conditions. They are not necessarily safe driving speeds. I hope the driver has a clear concsience over his contribution to the outcome whether guilty of any driving offence or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoop Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I once skidded on some mud in the grounds of the Northern General Hospital (there was some buillding work going on and tractors had been going back and forth from the site onto the road). I was only doing about 1o miles an hourbut still managed to slide across to the other side of the road, thank god no one was in the way, but it goes to show that even at snails pace you can get into trouble in slippery conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 an amazing number of arm chair experts (not to mention judges and jurys posting here). I've skidded on black ice before, the rest of the road was completely ice free, and one patch was just a sheet of ice. I was only doing 30 mph and went into a tree. Unless we become psychic somehow then accidents will happen, they are called accidents for a reason. My current car has a warning light that comes on at 4 degrees and another for 0 degrees, I think that's a brilliant feature as I know when I should be taking a bit of extra care as ice is possible. I'm particularly interested in the post by kipper The driver will have known how bad the road gets and selfishly felt protected in its steel carcus as all car drivers do. how exactly do you know that? For all you know he'd never driven on that road before. If there are any questions to be asked it might be about this; It is understood police were called to another accident on the same road an hour previously after a car lost control on the ice. Why didn't they either call out a gritter or put up some warning signs? The conditions don't exactly sound like the ones when you'd be worried about black ice either in fine weather, ... when they were struck by the car travelling in the opposite direction shortly after 1000 GMT on the A547 Rhuddlan Road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotti Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I can't believe you lot! Ok - it's a tragedy, it is. And I really feel for those cyclists who survived and the families of the dead. But come on! You don't know the circumstances - you are judging a man you do not know without any actual evidence. You have only read what is in the papers, whoever said the guy knew it was a bad road, how do you know?! Do you know him? It could have been an isolated spot of ice as the report says it was a fine day. When it was icy here recently I drove as I believed was safe with the conditions. I don't have years of experience but I did learn in the winter and know how important it is to take conditions into consideration. Still I managed to skid and was terrified I wouldn't stop before the junction I was pulling out of. I did stop in time but it would have been quite possible not to have done. I am sure that the driver went away feeling guilty whether he was to blame or not. He was the more damaging vehicle, so whether he was driving dangerously or not, he will probably feel responsible. I sincerely hope nobody ever finds this thread and passes it onto him because you lot are so judgemental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D2J Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Originally posted by fnkysknky Are you lot taking the **** or what? The report says that it doesn't look like the drivers speed was to blame and that it was an accident, it skidded on the ice. Should have known you'd all know better than the experts on scene Thank god you said it before I did.. Icy Roads were to blame! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spinac Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 We shouldn't judge the driver before all the fact are known - I agree that everyone is innocent until proven otherwise. We shouldn't either allow all the blame to be passed onto the police, or the local council. We all have a moral responsibility for our actions, whether abiding by the law or not. I would hope that the driver genuinely feels comfortable with himself that he wasn't pushing his experience and abilities for the conditions as he understood them. Check out http://www.politics.co.uk/press-releases/safe-speed-was-there-policing-failure-in-cycling-accident-$15128204.htm Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign (http://www.safespeed.org.uk) said: "Initial reports suggest that North Wales police had an opportunity to prevent this tragedy but failed to take it. They could have warned traffic, closed the road or called in the gritters. They should know how unpredictable icy road surfaces can be. Did they really know the danger and walk away? Safe Speed demands a full public investigation." Whether the police did or did not call for the road to be gritted and whether the local authority responded appropriately or not, drivers should not depend on legal speed limits and warnings. We are all responsible for making our own judgements based on our experience and abilities. I hope for the drivers sake that he feels confident that he was driving responsibly at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alchresearch Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I can't speak for this group of cyclists, but I have seen cycle clubs out on the road in the past and they've been bunched together is a massive group, making it very difficult to see round when overtaking. I'm not certain of the exact highway code but was under the impression that you should ride no more than two abreast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheff_minx Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Originally posted by alchresearch I'm not certain of the exact highway code but was under the impression that you should ride no more than two abreast. As this particular group of cyclists were doing... The cyclists were said to be riding in fine weather, in pairs and wearing helmets IMO this was an accident. Obviously I'm not an expert, but it appears that the driver was not at fault. I may be proven wrong, I may not. But I hope that the driver never sees this thread as some horrible things have been posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickmonk Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 So far its... the driver's fault the council's fault the police's fault and even the cyclists' fault! AND YET, all evidence points to it being an accident. Good grief, are we not happy unless we've got someone to point the finger at? Events not tragic enough? Need a bit more drama? tut tut. Chicken Monkey x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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