Are we living in a classless society? Does class still matter?

[Kezza1]

look at he evidence ? .................. the upper classes have both social and political poer although it could be argued its the same? ...... i do believe in Marx there is no such thing as the middle class you are made to think there is so the fighting going on between the classes takes away from the fact that the Queen has a man to play around with her clocks .......by the way your tax money pays for that!....... ofcourse there is class upper and working if you workfor a living you working class ........i wouldnt dream of associating myself with the middle class agents of the upper class

[t020]

Originally posted by foo_fighter

Not in my opinion, the key part for me was "...I earn...", that makes you working class.

 

My father always used to say,

 

"If you have to work for a living, your working class...

 

...if you own a business, and other people do the work for you, your middle class...

 

...and the upper class… …they do naff all."

 

(or words to that effect)

 

I still think there's a lot of truth in that statement, even if "Her Maggieness" tried to convince us we were all middle class, and should therefore vote for her / the Tories.

 

 

So a corner shop owner is middle class but an Oxford educated barrister from Windsor who *earns* a healthy salary is working class? Twaddle.

[nick2]

Originally posted by t020

an Oxford educated barrister from Windsor who *earns* a healthy salary is working class? Twaddle.

 

Does he work for a living ?

[foo_fighter]

Originally posted by t020

So a corner shop owner is middle class but an Oxford educated barrister from Windsor who *earns* a healthy salary is working class? Twaddle.

t020, try to read what I actually said please.

 

The Barrister works for a living, put that into one of my categories, yes, working class.

 

The shop owner also works for a living, so, also working class.

 

If Sir Alan Sugar allows employees to run his business, then he'd be in "middle", if he goes to work every day he's in "working", he's in the (fortunate?) position to be able to choose, the corner shop owner, and the barrister are not.

 

Basically look at it this way, if you choose whether to go to work in the morning or not, you can be "middle". If you "have to" get up and go to work to earn a living, sorry but your working class.

 

IMO

[foo_fighter]

Originally posted by t020

So a corner shop owner is middle class but an Oxford educated barrister from Windsor who *earns* a healthy salary is working class? Twaddle.

Oh, and on another point, what has "Oxford educated" or "from Windsor" got to do with class anyway?

 

I think somebody is being a little bit Hyacinth Boo-quet out there.

[t020]

Originally posted by foo_fighter

t020, try to read what I actually said please.

 

The Barrister works for a living, put that into one of my categories, yes, working class.

 

The shop owner also works for a living, so, also working class.

 

If Sir Alan Sugar allows employees to run his business, then he'd be in "middle", if he goes to work every day he's in "working", he's in the (fortunate?) position to be able to choose, the corner shop owner, and the barrister are not.

 

Basically look at it this way, if you choose whether to go to work in the morning or not, you can be "middle". If you "have to" get up and go to work to earn a living, sorry but your working class.

 

IMO

 

 

 

My own personal definition would put him as working class and the barrister as middle class. If your definition is right, Britain would have a "middle class" of around 10,000 people since there aren't many Alan Sugars (who incidentally I'd define as working class) who direct large business empires and don't have to work, an upper class of a few thousand and a working class of over 59 million. This simply isn't true, IMO.

[Titian]

Can someone explain to me why anyone that works isn't working class? A barrister works!

 

It is very outdated and not relevant at all.

[Phanerothyme]

Originally posted by bonny

Can someone explain to me why anyone that works isn't working class? A barrister works!

 

It is very outdated and not relevant at all.

 

EP Thompson can - "Making of the English Working Class"

(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0394703227/103-0671123-3087068?v=glance)

[t020]

Originally posted by bonny

Can someone explain to me why anyone that works isn't working class? A barrister works!

 

It is very outdated and not relevant at all.

 

Because it doesn't make sense to classify the largest section of the population into 1 class. A builder works, but his income, lifestyle, outlook, politics, education, etc etc is all likely to be significantly different to a professional's (doctors, lawyers, accountants, business/IT consultants, etc etc) income, lifestyle, outlook, politics and education. To classify them the same way is pretty misleading and meaningless. Also, people on benefits don't work - does that make them middle class?? It's not as simple as work Vs no work.

[Voise]

I think class still is important in Britain and in how people identify themselves. It is still at the foundation of much of the British 'establishment' - the monarchy, the unwritten constitution etc.

However, I agree that the definition of class has become more complex over time and that the titles of 'working' 'middle' and 'upper' perhaps only serve to cause confusion.

The way I look at it: if you are economically and socially exploited (ie you don't have personal power over your economic and social conditions) then you are working class. The distinction between middle and upper classes is more blurred - but these classes earn 'profit' - be it from investments, businesses, professions (if their earnings relate to how much profit they make), land etc, not a wage as such, and have control over their own economic and social environment.

However, I also have difficulty making general assumptions about the economic, social and political circumstances of large swathes of the population.