Are we living in a classless society? Does class still matter?

[Cyclone]

Originally posted by foo_fighter

t020, your latest post:

 

and yet previously:

 

So if it doesn't matter to you, why mention it in the first place?

 

Oh, is it the barrister bit, the education and location fell in by accident, or do they somehow vaguely "support" the "middle" class-ness of a barrister?

 

 

he didn't say that they weren't factors, only that they weren't the only factors.

[timo]

Phan,

Perhaps you are correct here, re 'field'. Then again, is anybody completely 100% 'anything'? I say 'paleo-conservative' because that most accurately describes the majority of my beliefs/ideas. I am 'into' Burke, Scruton etc, however I sometimes read Bourdieu and Gramsci and think, yes, they too have interesting ways of describing the world. Maybe we can take something from lots of different schools to make interesting hybrids? In future, I'll be less dogmatic about how I label myself. Cheers, Phan, you've given me something to think about there. That is why I like the forum- one can learn from lots of other posters.

[Phanerothyme]

Originally posted by timo

Phan,

Perhaps you are correct here, re 'field'. Then again, is anybody completely 100% 'anything'? I say 'paleo-conservative' because that most accurately describes the majority of my beliefs/ideas. I am 'into' Burke, Scruton etc, however I sometimes read Bourdieu and Gramsci and think, yes, they too have interesting ways of describing the world. Maybe we can take something from lots of different schools to make interesting hybrids? In future, I'll be less dogmatic about how I label myself. Cheers, Phan, you've given me something to think about there. That is why I like the forum- one can learn from lots of other posters.

 

Too right.

 

That bordieu book has just landed on our dining room table courtesy of my historian GF, and boy is it heavy going. I read some mad french **** for English lit and on the face of it this is the same - the translation from the french makes the delivery almost intolerably pompous!

 

From what I have heard about Bordieu though, makes him sound like a real activist. He seems to have thrown out the western academic tradition of maintaining intellectual aloofness, and extolled the virtues of taking a stand and getting involved at the ground floor. A lot of people were sad to hear of his death from not just personal reasons, but that a unique voice in philosophy had been lost too.

 

I must say that I am very admiring of the french tradition of celebrating their academics, without having to turn them into 'celebs'.

 

I think the most interesting thing about the competition to own the word 'class' is that it almost exclusively revolves around the power to define 'working class'.

 

'working class' is a very powerful idea, as it is tied in with class consciousness and perhaps exhibits the clearest examples of class as an agent in the world. But with any definition of class it is clear that the stratifications of society, including detailed rules of deference and social order, are as nothing compared to the 19th century.

[timo]

Phan,

Bourdieu was one of the very few authentically 'working class' Sociologist/Philosophers too. I suspect that he had first hand experience of lacking the 'cultural capital' required in the classroom.

 

Re 'class as an agent'. Do you really see it that way? In a sense, with respect, you engage in reification here. 'Class' itself is not a social actor, capable of formulating and acting upon decisions. Only individual, human social actors are in my view. Then again, I'm into post-Postmodern sociological theory, and I've probably had too much to think!

[Cyclone]

maybe you two can recommend a good introductory book on the nature of class for those of us currently lacking that bit of cultural capital?

[Titian]

Originally posted by Phanerothyme

EP Thompson can - "Making of the English Working Class"

(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0394703227/103-0671123-3087068?v=glance)

[timo]

Cyclone,

Your comment made me smile . Re the book recommended by Phan; I'd agree that that is the best historical account of the emergence of an English working class. However, if you want to understand the various systems of stratification [ways of putting people into different classes], any basic Sociology textbook will do. One called, 'Sociology: Making Sense of Society', edited by Ian Marsh and Mike Keating, published 2003 by Longman I think [ian and Mike are ex-colleagues of mine] should do the trick.

[nick2]

Originally posted by Cyclone

nick - i don't like you putting 'vote conservative' in that list, and number of children in a family have nothing to do with class. Although an unusually large brood might be an indication.

 

It was just what I think a middle class family is, perhaps I should change it to "won't vote Labour" and "have a modest number of children, with one bedroom per child" ?

[Phanerothyme]

Originally posted by Cyclone

maybe you two can recommend a good introductory book on the nature of class for those of us currently lacking that bit of cultural capital?

 

If you can get through it. that book I mentioned earlier:

 

Distinction: A Social Critique of the Judgement of Taste - Pierre Bourdieu

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415045460/qid=1115640744/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4_xgl/202-8415831-3639858

 

can you believe she spent her Christmas book tokens on it?

 

I've leafed through it here and there - boy is it dense. I think I will leave it to my intellectual OH to precis it for me over supper some time.

 

The German Ideology and the Communist Manifesto by Marx and Engels are essential if you want to understand how class is referred to by successive historical and sociological perspectives.

 

Marx is the daddy.

 

(of course he was wrong, but his ideas influenced the whole world)

 

Timo - my feet are no longer touching the bottom on the question of whether social classes can be described as agents. I'll leave that for you to expound opn methinks.

 

I'm off to argue about the Iraq War instead.

[foo_fighter]

Originally posted by Cyclone

he didn't say that they weren't factors, only that they weren't the only factors.

Hmmm, now I know I'm currently having a discussion with you and t020 here, but of one thing I am sure...

 

...t020 is quite capable of explaining what he actually meant in due course.

 

Does this mean I have to revise my earlier definition:

 

Cyclone, I think we'll invent a new class just for you.

 

Z99: Permanently argumentative in a tremendously pedantic way "class".

 

Note to self, alter to:

 

Z99: Permanently argumentative in a tremendously pedantic way and so arrogantly presumptive as to answer for other people "class".