The big fight... Rooney -v- Ronaldo

[Ivor&Mel]

I can't see that it's any use blaming Sven. The players have to be good enough to deliver at tournament level, and they are patently not. The only players that have come out of this with credit are Hargreaves (my God... I never thought I could ever say that!), Lennon, and A.Cole. A fit (and present!) Rooney and Owen would have made the world of difference; Crouch is useful, but not as Plan A; we have no other strikers who can hack it at international level.

[Ivor&Mel]

Cronaldo was certainly trying to wind Rooney up before the kick-off. Whether or not the SM article is factually correct, I have no idea - but it described Rooney as looking "bewildered" by Cronaldo's antics, and that much was certainly true!

 

And why was it Ronaldo in particular who had to run to the ref after the foot-ball incident? As the wink said, job done...

 

I've read that Real Madrid are likely to play a friendly at OT... I "shouldn't be surprised" if Cronaldo gets a warm reception from those on and off the field...

[bensonhedges]

Well if we will have foul tempered spoilt chav scum in the team, what do we expect?

[plekhanov]

I can't see that it's any use blaming Sven. The players have to be good enough to deliver at tournament level, and they are patently not. The only players that have come out of this with credit are Hargreaves (my God... I never thought I could ever say that!), Lennon, and A.Cole. A fit (and present!) Rooney and Owen would have made the world of difference; Crouch is useful, but not as Plan A; we have no other strikers who can hack it at international level.

What the hell are you talking about? Gerrard is good enough to drive an otherwise mediocre Liverpool team onto win the European Cup and would walk into practically any club side in the world, Lampard is the first name on on the team sheet at the richest club in the world, Hargreaves has won everything there is to win at Bayer Munich, Joe Cole is more than adequate on the left and Lennon was superb (when he got the chance) down the right. Our defence is world class and as for us not having any other strikers who can hack it at international level how do you know that? How much chance have the likes of Bent, Beattie, Harewood, Johnson and the rest actually had to show whether they can hack it or not?

 

It’s the managers job to get the players to play well individually and as a team and that is something Sven abjectly failed to do. The T&T manager got a bunch of misfit championship players to hold their own against the best the premiership had to offer how can anybody but Sven take the blame for that?

[Ivor&Mel]

Well if we will have foul tempered spoilt chav scum in the team, what do we expect?

Remarks like that! But Rooney is class when he's fit and stays on the field long enough. He's only 20 FFS. Unlikely to be at his peak till WC 2014. And unlikely ever to be at his peak if we keep knocking the only gem in the national side.

[Greenback]

Afraid you're barking up the wrong tree. It's pretty clear that England's midfield players aren't really all that they are cracked up to be.

 

His two goals aside, Gerrard has been anonymous in this World Cup, as he often is at Liverpool. Lampard looked shattered right from kick off yesterday and he too is massively over-rated. Both these players are strikers playing in midfield and offer little other than shooting from outside the area. They certainly don't control games in the way you need to in international football.

 

Joe Cole is very promising but not quite the finished article as yet. Beckham is clearly that - finished - while Lennon, while impressive, is very green at the moment.

 

Look at Zidane's performance last night for an example of what a world class midfield player does on the pitch. He is on a different planet to our lads, game triers that they are.

 

Our midfield is too one-paced and not nearly skilful enough to break a solid side like Portugal down. I thought we played well last night and deserved to sneak our way through.

 

But deep down, I know that for all the talk of sendings-off, Sven, the superstars with the flash cars and flashier girlfriends, English fighting spirit, etc etc, we are around about the eighth best team in the world at football and no more than that.

 

With the team that we have, to get to the quarter-finals is pretty much a par performance.

[Ivor&Mel]

What the hell are you talking about? Gerrard is good enough to drive an otherwise mediocre Liverpool team onto win the European Cup and would walk into practically any club side in the world, Lampard is the first name on on the team sheet at the richest club in the world, Hargreaves has won everything there is to win at Bayer Munich, Joe Cole is more than adequate on the left and Lennon was superb (when he got the chance) down the right. Our defence is world class and as for us not having any other strikers who can hack it at international level how do you know that? How much chance have the likes of Bent, Beattie, Harewood, Johnson and the rest actually had to show whether they can hack it or not?

 

It’s the managers job to get the players to play well individually and as a team and that is something Sven abjectly failed to do. The T&T manager got a bunch of misfit championship players to hold their own against the best the premiership had to offer how can anybody but Sven take the blame for that?

What the hell am I talking about? I'm talking about international tournament football - not club football. There is a world of difference. Are you telling me that a truly great player is not capable of changing a game on-the-fly, even if it goes against his manager's instructions? Especially in the case of a manager who is leaving! Are you telling me that it was Sven's fault that our players couldn't and never have (or only once) been able to win a penalty shoot-out? And as for Bent, Beattie, Johnson... they've had a chance to show something and failed. They are club players!

 

Look, I'm not a Sven fan. And I agree that a good manager has to get his team functioning. But this is our so-called golden generation, and they have been well and truly exposed. The players have to take the ultimate responsibility: they did not play one decent game in the whole tournament, no matter what the formation. Our players are still technically and tactically incompetent when it comes to tournaments.

 

I just wish we could have got Hiddink. Then we could have had some hope that a manager could influence the way the team plays. Beenhakker did a great job for T&T, can't argue with that

[Whatif wewin]

I can't see that it's any use blaming Sven. The players have to be good enough to deliver at tournament level, and they are patently not. The only players that have come out of this with credit are Hargreaves (my God... I never thought I could ever say that!), Lennon, and A.Cole. A fit (and present!) Rooney and Owen would have made the world of difference; Crouch is useful, but not as Plan A; we have no other strikers who can hack it at international level.

 

Two points 1.

 

You don't make any sense of course the manager is at fault. The manager picks the team and tactics and should provide purpose and motivation. The manager is there to direct, dictate motivate, and Sven did not.

 

An example of why I blame Sven:

Rooney would play full back if he was told to do so by the manager.

Playing Rooney at full back would not be sensible because his talents are running at defenders and going for goal.

Sven used Rooney to far forward (remember he must do what the manager says) this did not allow him to run at defenders with the ball, he was used as a target man with no one near him ; the same way Sven used crouch previously to no effect. Sven used the wrong system for England’s talent he is mostly to blame.

Second point 2.

 

You say in a later post that if we had a manager such as Hiddink we may have done better

QUOTE:

 

I just wish we could have got Hiddink. Then we could have had some hope that a manager could influence the way the team plays. Beenhakker did a great job for T&T, can't argue with that

 

 

 

So you contradict yourself.

Ok I sometimes seemingly do that but what are you actually meaning? I am happy Sven has gone, but I am concerned that the new boss was Svens deputy, and he either had no influence or was just as useless.

[plekhanov]

What the hell am I talking about? I'm talking about international tournament football - not club football. There is a world of difference.

There is? In what way? Do you really think that Barcelona, Chelsea or similar are worse than the sides we’ve seen in this world cup? Would Chelsea not crush T&T?

 

Are you telling me that a truly great player is not capable of changing a game on-the-fly, even if it goes against his manager's instructions? Especially in the case of a manager who is leaving! Are you telling me that it was Sven's fault that our players couldn't and never have (or only once) been able to win a penalty shoot-out?

I’m not saying any of that stuff quit straw-manning me and please respond to what I actually post, what I am saying is that Sven had years to come up with a decent side and some very good (maybe not great but damn good) players to do that with he failed to do that and instead somehow managed to consistently get the worst out of a talented bunch of midfielders and failed to come up with a lineup of forwards.

 

And as for Bent, Beattie, Johnson... they've had a chance to show something and failed. They are club players!

They have? When? How many chances did they get with the England first team in their right position? Johnson’s had 2 caps so far his first coming as a sub stuck out on the wing

 

Look, I'm not a Sven fan. And I agree that a good manager has to get his team functioning. But this is our so-called golden generation, and they have been well and truly exposed. The players have to take the ultimate responsibility: they did not play one decent game in the whole tournament, no matter what the formation. Our players are still technically and tactically incompetent when it comes to tournaments.

No the manager has to take ultimate responsibility; he’s the one who picks the players and tells them how to play, he’s the one who kept switching formations every other game so that the players were so confused they didn’t know what they were doing, he’s the one who’s supposed to get performances out of the players he picked (who consistently play much better for other managers), he’s the one who had 5 years to come up with a team and a system and failed to do so.

 

I just wish we could have got Hiddink. Then we could have had some hope that a manager could influence the way the team plays. Beenhakker did a great job for T&T, can't argue with that

Do you not realise that this paragraph contradicts everything else you’ve said?

[Rushup]

I didn't expect England to progress beyond the quarter finals before the tournament started, knowing full well what Eriksson was like. He delivered exactly as expected, and went out again to a team that, given the players at his disposal, should have been broken down easily.

 

In the England players defence, how can they be expected to perform as world beaters when the manager continually plays them in unfamiliar roles and systems?

 

Why on earth did Sven switch to 4-5-1 when 4-4-2 (a system all the players know how to play well) was used throughout most of his reign? 4-4-2 or even 3-5-2 would have been more logical and effective. At times it seemed Eriksson was concerned only with getting the big names on the teamsheet, and not with getting the best out of the team as a whole.

 

Why did he instruct the players to lump the ball to Crouch, when he is no good in the air and prefers the ball at his feet?

 

Why play Owen Hargreaves at right back? Ok, he played well, but he doesn't play there for Bayern.

 

Why wasn't Beckham dropped? The wings were crying out for pace. There were times when I would loved to have seen:

 

Crouch......Rooney

 

Downing......J Cole.....Gerrard.......Lennon

 

Hargreaves

 

A Cole.....Terry....Ferdinand

 

Robinson

 

Lampard obviously wasn't doing the business, nor was Beckham. They should have been dropped for the good of the team, and it may have galvanized them to work harder the next time they were selected.

 

Many times it seemed Eriksson has picked a system then tried to fit the players into it. Alan Hansen likened Sven's tactics to putting square pegs in round holes; "some of his tactical switches are absurd, you pick the players, then you pick the system"