''The war on men''

[Waldo]

Equal pay means, in my view, men can no longer be expected to play the role of provider.

 

...which I'm not exactly sure how I feel about that, because, beyond societal expectations I think men's natural role is (i.e. we have a natural inclination) to defend, protect and provide for women.

[ENG601PM]

Could that be because women are often not actually treat as equal?

You need to give us some examples of how women are often not treated equally.

[willman]

As expected the usual suspects defend what are womens "rights" and don't complain.

You miss the point - equality is equal to both.

I didn't say things didn't exist that were men only, my point was it's only the men only issues that are raised and made high profile.

Hence my comment Cancer ONLY doing women only events, the rhetoric over Men only Freemasons and not WI.

Do women want to join Freemasons Halibut ? I don't see that question being raised.

 

Having manners is about sex and gender, as is etiquette.

Why is it manners/etiquette to stand for a lady or hold a chair for her but its not accorded to gentlemen?

Why is it manners to take a ladies coat or to help her on with it - is she incapable?

 

People who debate on here genuinely make others feel this way.

Am i a mysogynist because i find women attractive and like to look at them?

According to many on here i am, and apparently thats non pc,so that in turn adjusts the way i interact.

 

I fully support equal pay and equal opportunity in work, beyond that it doesn't translate into society.

[ENG601PM]

Do women want to join Freemasons Halibut ? I don't see that question being raised.

 

A slight aside, but there are lots of women freemasons but they seem to struggle to keep up momentum as women as a group aren't very interested in freemasonry.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/apr/30/freemasons-allow-women-join

 

Golf clubs are also dying on their arse despite opening up properly to women in recent years. etc.

[Waldo]

Also, wasn't there some recent statistic that more people die from prostate cancer now, than from breast cancer; yet the later receives more funding?

 

Yes! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42890405

 

Race for male lives anyone?

[Cyclone]

You need to give us some examples of how women are often not treated equally.

 

I don't think I do.

[Michael_W]

There is an element in society that believes favouring and making special cases/causes for women, bme, lgbqt, whilst harping on about male(particularly white) privilege etc is equality, most of it is nonsense IMHO !

[Cyclone]

In my experience, that expectation exists and a great many women are happy for men to pay. That's just my perception of course.

 

I do think though, if we're considering the question of pay equality, we also need to consider how it relates social expectation and gender roles. I think traditionally where men have been payed more, women have often been the home maker, the man bringing home the bacon while the women invests time and energy creating a home.

 

Times change...

 

I'm all for individuals getting equal pay for the same job; but as we practice equality and fairness in terms of pay, I think we need to do also in terms of expectations regarding gender roles. Equal pay means, in my view, men can no longer be expected to play the role of provider.

 

This is a circular argument. Women were in a position of lower pay and so were dependant on a husband to have higher pay to have a reasonable quality of life.

Society has already moved on, pay hasn't.

 

---------- Post added 14-02-2018 at 11:38 ----------

 

...which I'm not exactly sure how I feel about that, because, beyond societal expectations I think men's natural role is (i.e. we have a natural inclination) to defend, protect and provide for women.

 

Perhaps you should try to think about what women might want though.

 

---------- Post added 14-02-2018 at 11:43 ----------

 

As expected the usual suspects defend what are womens "rights" and don't complain.

You miss the point - equality is equal to both.

As expected, the usual suspects defend inequality with arguments that make little sense.

I didn't say things didn't exist that were men only, my point was it's only the men only issues that are raised and made high profile.

This isn't true.

Hence my comment Cancer ONLY doing women only events, the rhetoric over Men only Freemasons and not WI.

Do women want to join Freemasons Halibut ? I don't see that question being raised.

Women wanted to join golf clubs, but until recently couldn't...

You're conveniently blind to discrimination against women, whilst apparently unhappy about discrimination against men in that an charity event was held for women only... You claim that men only clubs don't exist, but then when pointed out that they do, you find a reason they don't count.

 

Having manners is about sex and gender, as is etiquette.

No, it really isn't.

Why is it manners/etiquette to stand for a lady or hold a chair for her but its not accorded to gentlemen?

It's an outdated patriarchal behaviour. Women are quite capable of moving chairs, so let them do it. No one will accuse you of bad manners for allowing a female to seat herself.

Why is it manners to take a ladies coat or to help her on with it - is she incapable?

The same applies, if you ever did this, stop it, it's demeaning and probably offending at least some of the women involved.[quote[

 

People who debate on here genuinely make others feel this way.

Am i a mysogynist because i find women attractive and like to look at them?

No, of course not. It's perfectly natural to find other people attractive.

According to many on here i am, and apparently thats non pc,so that in turn adjusts the way i interact.

Nobody has ever made that claim, you've made it up, strawman.

 

I fully support equal pay and equal opportunity in work, beyond that it doesn't translate into society.

 

It absolutely does. Just treat everyone like a person and stop worrying about their sexual organs, they aren't defined by having a penis, vagina or boobs.

[willman]

This is a circular argument. Women were in a position of lower pay and so were dependant on a husband to have higher pay to have a reasonable quality of life.

Society has already moved on, pay hasn't.

 

---------- Post added 14-02-2018 at 11:38 ----------

 

Perhaps you should try to think about what women might want though.

 

Do you ? Or just the one your with ?

That's a genuine question, my wife was brought up in the old traditional family unit, man works and pays,woman earns "pin money" usually around schooling.

To this day that's how she thinks "we" should live.

I don't you should each pay your way through life as individuals -as my children do.

We have female friends who earn as much as their partners and everything is split 50/50 (which would suit me) others frown upon that.

I have friends who are dominant males and the wives tend to agree with everything they say and do.

 

So which women do I think about when i'm rationalising societies expectations.

[Michael_W]

Perhaps you should try to think about what women might want though.

 

Like you said earlier, 'society has moved on', which means it thinks about what women might want, sometimes above the concerns of others in my opinion, however it seems very much like on this forum that it is men doing the arguing on their behalf, so if your such an expert what do women want ?