We're all going to die! The end of the World is nigh

[Abdul]

Originally posted by Sierra

 

could you at least wait until the US actually DOES something, before starting with the blame? Please?

 

 

Sierra, please don't feel that the USA is unfairly criticised on SheffieldForum just because we're a bunch of flag-burning freedom-haters.

 

I feel where the criticism is justified is due to the US' foreign policy, which is happy to sell weapons and military technology to the most brutal and oppressive regimes for financial (and perhaps political) gain.

 

You share JoePritchard's concern over North Korea's nuclear capability, and rightly so. However, it was only a few years ago that Donald Rumsfeld (yes, that Donald Rumsfeld, the one-time supporter of Saddam Hussein) was happy to sell North Korea that very same technology.

 

The two faces of Rumsfeld

 

2000: director of a company which wins $200m contract to sell nuclear reactors to North Korea

 

2002: declares North Korea a terrorist state, part of the axis of evil and a target for regime change

 

Mr Rumsfeld was a non-executive director of ABB, a European engineering giant based in Zurich, when it won a $200m (£125m) contract to provide the design and key components for the reactors. The current defence secretary sat on the board from 1990 to 2001, earning $190,000 a year. He left to join the Bush administration.

[Titian]

Sierra,

 

It wasn't a personal attack on U.S citizens. Just my opinion on the U.S government which I know a lot of U.S citizens share.

[Carl_5]

Originally posted by Abdul

However, it was only a few years ago that Donald Rumsfeld (yes, that Donald Rumsfeld, the one-time supporter of Saddam Hussein) was happy to sell North Korea that very same technology.

 

But has this not gone on for a while now, the US training people to fight against their so-called enemies, then to leave these people to their deaths, or just to declare war against them because they don’t agree with democracy.

 

At end of the day I doubt the US will do anything about NK, they will not gain anything by invading and unlike Iraq there is not a score to settle

[Sierra]

No offense taken bonny, I know it was nothing against me personally. I just don't think it's fair to assign blame until, you know, something actually happens.

 

Abdul, I know for a fact that not all SF members are a bunch of flag-burning freedom-haters (your sarcasm is wasted on me, sir ) as I have received e-mails amd pm's from other forum members. All of which have been supportive and very nice.

 

And those of you, you know who you are, and I am grateful to you for your thoughtfulness.

 

And even if I hadn't, I wouldn't tar all forum members with the same anti-American brush. I prefer to take people as individuals. And it is my sincere hope that others would give me the same consideration.

 

What would YOU suggest be done with that maniac Kim Jong Il? Shall we all sit idly by and do nothing? Ignore him? Maybe he'll go away, or blow himself up? Should we try to be his friend? Perhaps he's just misguided. Probably had a bad childhood. His father was a dictator too, you know.

 

And I am sick, sick, SICK of this whole America is evil, Dubya is the devil, lets dredge up every past transgression we can find from the spread of McDonald's and Starbucks to Abu Ghraib. Of course you feel the criticism is justified. There is nothing on this earth that would convince you otherwise.

 

And I would like to add that I am positively horrified at how Americanised some foreign countries have allowed themselves to become. What is going on? Why do they allow this to happen? Why don't they stand up for themselves if they don't like it?!

 

And since we're way off track, and you're talking about Donald Rumsfeld. Who, by the way, I also don't especially like, and yes, you are right, what the guy did STINKS ON ICE, BUT THAT'S BUSINESS. THAT'S HOW DEALS ARE MADE AND COUNTRIES ARE RUN. He was employed in the private sector, not in government at the time he did these things, Clinton was president at the time, HE let it happen, not Bush, but there's sh*t all anyone can do about it NOW.

 

All we can do is handle this nutzoid with kid gloves and hope his itchy finger is not pressed too tightly to the button.

 

I'd like to bring up the tsunami in Sri Lanka last December. This below pretty much sums up how I feel at times like these. It was not written by me. I wish I knew who the author was, as I would like to give him or her credit.

 

Today, I was "Unprofessional"...

Over the past 6 weeks, I've been deeply enmeshed in one of those "go live at the end of the year" projects that we in the IT industry have learned to love. The kind where managers assume that since no one is working, why that would be the perfect time to go live!

 

Of course, it means that your doing complex work at the point of maximum distraction with many many holidays and no staff.

This year we had a major distraction, and I'm bothered that I described it that way.

 

On Christmas Day, a disaster visited the human race. Hundreds of thousands of people, quietly living their lives on the edge of the sea were killed. They were killed, not by suicide bombers or suitcase nukes or crazed men hijacking planes into buildings. They were killed with simple seawater. Those that were killed werent just simple minded fools who wandered lemming like out into the unusually low tide, only to be mowed down by the sudden flood. They were people enjoying the sights from the second story of a hotel when the ocean rose up to engulf them. The horror of it all hasnt even begun to sink in to most of us.

 

There is a tendancy in the western world to overlook the disasters of the third world. Unless it involves us "white folks", the press of the western world does not seem to care or think that we do. In this disaster, one example of disgusting western depravity could be found in the many press outlets that made big news out of a "supermodel" who was (gasp!!!) harmed in the disaster. Imagine if someone on September 12th had published a report that Zsa Zsa Gabor and her poodle were put out by the lack of cabs in Manhattan. It made me sick to my stomach to see this item on the news.

 

Today, The Secretary of State Colin Powell announced that 5,000 Americans could not be accounted for, Sweden also announced roughly the same figure for their citizens.

 

Now we care. And shame on us all.

 

Today, during an afternoon conference that wrapped up my project of the last 18 months, one of my Euro collegues tossed this little turd out to no one in particular:

 

"See, this is why George Bush is so dumb, theres a disaster in the world and he sends an Aircraft Carrier..."

 

After which he and many of my Euro collegues laughed out loud.

 

and then they looked at me. I wasn't laughing, and neither was my Hindi friend sitting next to me, who has lost family in the disaster.

 

I'm afraid I was "unprofessional", I let it loose -

 

"Hmmm, let's see, what would be the ideal ship to send to a disaster, now what kind of ship would we want?

 

Something with its own inexhuastible power supply?

 

Something that can produce 900,000 gallons of fresh water a day from sea water?

 

Something with its own airfield? So that after producing the fresh water, it could help distribute it?

 

Something with 4 hospitals and lots of open space for emergency supplies?

 

Something with a global communications facility to make the coordination of disaster relief in the region easier?

 

Well "Franz", us peasants in America call that kind of ship an "Aircraft Carrier". We have 12 of them. How many do you have? Oh that's right, NONE. Lucky for you and the rest of the world, we are the kind of people who share. Even with people we dont like. In fact, if memory serves,once upon a time we peasants spent a ton of money and lives rescuing people who we had once tried to kill and who tried to kill us.

 

Do you know who those people were? that's right Franz, Europeans.

 

There is a French Aircraft carrier? Where is it? Right where it belongs! In France of course! Oh why should the French Navy dirty their uniforms helping people on the other side of the globe. How Simplesse...

 

The day an American has to move a European out of the way to help in some part of the world it will be a great day in the world, you sniggering little f**knob..."

 

The room fell silent. My hindi friend then said quietly to the Euros:

 

"Can you let your hatred of George Bush end for just one minute? There are people dying! And what are your countries doing? Amazon.com has helped more than France has. You all have a role to play in the world, why can't you see that? Thank God for the US Navy, they dont have to come and help, but they are. They helped you once and you should all thank God they did. They didnt have to, and no one but them would have done so. I'm ashamed of you all..."

 

He left the room, shaking and in tears. The frustration of being on the other side of the globe, unable to do anything to assist and faced with people who could not set aside their asininity long enough to reach out and help was too much for him to bear. I just shook my head and left. The Euros stood speechless.

 

Later in the breakroom, one of the laughing Euros caught me and extended his hand in an apology. I asked him where he was from, he said "a town outside of Berlin". He is a young man, in his early 20's.

 

I asked him if he knew of a man named Gail Halvorsen.

 

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/guides/debate/chats/halvorsen/

 

He said no.

 

I said "that's a shame" and walked away to find my Hindi friend.

 

Posted @ January 03, 2005 08:25 PM

 

And I would like to add,

 

Inevitably, there was criticism that we Americans didn't give enough money. And if we gave enough money, then it most likely wasn't given fast enough. Better yet, I bet that Americans were purposely bumbling the relief efforts and causing more death. Hell, we could go one step further. I bet the US has some new secret weapon that caused the Tsunami. George Bush tried to kill all those people because a majority of them were muslims.

 

My country does things I don't approve of. I am not happy with George Bush. I don't like the war. But it is still my country, and I feel damn fortunate to be born an American.

 

And I must say Abdul, I really would like to hear what can be done about this now, rather than the old hindsight has 20/20 vision, your country is to blame for all this, it's bad, it's evil, George Bush, blah, blah, blah. Really nothing constructive, just America bashing. Does nothing to help the situation at all. Unless it makes you feel better.

 

Sierra

[redrobbo]

A nuclear test by North Korea would be a very worrying

development.

 

It was in 1998 that the Noth Koreans launched a long-range missle over Japan. This dramatic action demonstrated that virtually all major Japanese cities, and US bases are within striking distance.

 

Since 1998, Pyongyang has played upon this threat by intermittently test-firing short-range missiles. The lastest such test firing was only last week.

[Phanerothyme]

It seems likely that NK have already tested their plutonium based weapon in Pakistan. in return for which they have supplied missile technology.

 

Pakistan is, of course, well known for its nuclear proliferation in the region, and when Pakistani A-Bombs first needed testing they went to the Chinese, who obliged. The cosy karma of continental nuclear collaboration...

[Abdul]

Sierra

 

Unfortunately, your response is exactly what I feared. This was the first time I'd ever responded to one of your posts regarding the foreign policy of the USA, because I honestly didn't want you to feel that by criticising the sale of miltary technology to third-world despots, I would be seen as an 'America basher'. I tried to make this clear in the first sentence of my reply, but sadly you misread that as sarcasm

 

I have family in the Middle East; I'm perhaps more aware of the destruction and instability that the interference of other nations causes to an entire region, so I may be more suspicious than most other regulars on the SheffieldForum.

 

I also have sympathy with your feelings about how your nation is an easy target for criticism. Imagine the flak I get on the SheffieldForum whenever anything happens in the Middle and Far East. Or Page Hall

 

Anyway, to answer your question about what can be done about the present situation in North Korea:

 

Kim Jong-II obviously enjoys all the attention he's receiving at the moment (calling Bush a 'hooligan' and a 'philistine' whom it could not deal with) so why not give him his 15 minutes of fame and engage in high profile peace talks? It happened with Libya a few months ago. After being a pariah state for several years, British companies are now falling over themselves to do business with Libya.

 

Diplomacy may not go down well with Pentagon Hawks who will deem this negotiation with a terrorist state, but until North Korea test their bomb, or perhaps threaten another state with it, there is a window of opportunity to prevent the situation from spiralling out of control. I know European states are trying a similar line with Iran (something those Hawks aren't too pleased at either).

 

India and Pakistan are now engaging in peace talks after quickly realising that dropping the bomb would be then end of both of them.

 

It's unlikely that Kim Jong-Il would ever use the bomb in anger, as they have little to gain except complete annihalation. And given Jong-IIs' reputation as a plutocract living in luxury, I doubt he'd wish to risk a nuclear war for the sake of his ego.

 

I fear a pre-emptive strike on North Korea would galvanise the North Korean people behind their leader and encourage Jong-II in his belief that the USA is a bully boy state who is not prepared to negogiate in order to pursue its own interests (such as when France performed a series of nuclear tests on the other side of the world many years ago).

 

And finally, governments can stop selling miltary technology to despots and states that have terrible human rights records - yes, and I include many Middle East governments. As my dentist said, prevention is better than the cure.

[Fareast]

Sierra

 

I have strong sympathies with your points of view.

I dislike a lot of what goes on in America , particularly on the cultural scene but as the dominant world power , I don't think America in general has behaved half as badly as previous world powers have done. Yet , to hear some of America's critics , you'd think America was the most evil place that had ever existed.

The problem is that a lot of them have no sense of history ----or even of fairly recent events , historically. Most of their fathers , grandfathers and great-grandfathers were very glad to have the Americans around during a large part of the last century. Or would they have preferred the Red Army marching down The Mall and the K.G.B. arresting you for listening to the wrong radio station ? Maybe they would.

All Super-Powers tend to misuse their power in some way or other. The Romans ? The Greeks ? The Egyptians ? The Ottomans? The Soviet Russians ? The French ? The British ? The Germans [!] , and many , many others. Were they all models of sweetness and light ? Were they worse or better than the Americans , given the difference in time and culture ? Difficult to say but it seems to me grotesque to think that America is amongst the worst or the worst.

[Cyclone]

whilst limiting profliferation is undoubtedly a good thing. I don't think we can take any sort of moral highground.

 

It's like we as a group were first past the finish post, and then quickly declared that no one else should actually carry on racing and that we might give them an ass wupping if they had the temerity to continue to run.

 

Whilst i would be quite happy if Kim Il Jong were to fall over dead right now, I don't think we can moralise our dislike of his weapons program. Call a spade a spade and call him a dangerous madman who needs to be stopped, but don't try and make us look all goodness and light, we aren't.

[nick2]

It always makes me laugh when the US start saying how dangerous a country will be with a nuclear weapon , when they are the only country that has actually ever used an atom bomb to blow people up.

 

Perhaps we should all have nukes, except the US ?