Failed minimum wage?

Those particular companies you mentioned failed for one reason only, because most people now prefer to do a lot of their buying online from companies like Amazon who siphon most of their taxes through countries like Luxembourg because of their lower tax regime. Something that Jean-Claude Juncker doesn't seem to have a problem with. Wonder why that is?

It's funny that a lot of the left wing losers don't want the UK to go down the same route.

As for you hating every minute working in the private sector, why aren't I surprised at that? It's the usual reaction from people who have been cosseted in the public sector.

And how do you know the people you mention would have made brilliant managers? I've worked at quite a few places in the fifty years after leaving school and in my experience most people tend to find their level.

If the CEOs mentioned are 'the best,' (and they are certainly paid as such,) they should have seen it coming and dealt with it before it hit. That's what they're paid (exorbitant amounts) for.

I worked in the private sector before I worked in the public sector. Unfortunately a lot of the private sector ethos has transferred to the public sector, much to its detriment. Many public services which should not be for profit, (eg carers and care homes,) are now being done by the private sector where profit for the shareholders is the only bottom line, and we can see the sad results.

As for 'brilliant managers,' time was when people with talent and experience were able to climb the career ladder from the bottom to the top. They were much respected by their employees, for that experience, and proved to be excellent managers. Unfortunately that has been superseeded by green as grass graduates being parachuted in, on the basis of paper qualifications and an interview or two. They often prove themselves unable to do the job and have to be carried by their staff. No wonder they are not respected.

And, talking of respect, please refrain from using phrases like 'left wing losers,' in your comments, which is offensive.

If the CEOs mentioned are 'the best,' (and they are certainly paid as such,) they should have seen it coming and dealt with it before it hit. That's what they're paid (exorbitant amounts) for.

 

I worked in the private sector before I worked in the public sector. Unfortunately a lot of the private sector ethos has transferred to the public sector, much to its detriment. Many public services which should not be for profit, (eg carers and care homes,) are now being done by the private sector where profit for the shareholders is the only bottom line, and we can see the sad results.

 

As for 'brilliant managers,' time was when people with talent and experience were able to climb the career ladder from the bottom to the top. They were much respected by their employees, for that experience, and proved to be excellent managers. Unfortunately that has been superseeded by green as grass graduates being parachuted in, on the basis of paper qualifications and an interview or two. They often prove themselves unable to do the job and have to be carried by their staff. No wonder they are not respected.

 

And, talking of respect, please refrain from using phrases like 'left wing losers,' in your comments, which is offensive.

Sounds like sour grapes and baseless ranting. Have you passed over by these “graduate” types.

I work in the private sector and in my field, unless you have a graduate degree you wouldn’t even be considered.

As for graduates not being able to do the job, I would blame your recruitment process for failing. As always, you can’t seem to see what the real problem is.

Sounds like sour grapes and baseless ranting. Have you passed over by these “graduate” types.

 

I work in the private sector and in my field, unless you have a graduate degree you wouldn’t even be considered.

 

As for graduates not being able to do the job, I would blame your recruitment process for failing. As always, you can’t seem to see what the real problem is.

There will always be some jobs that require specific intensive training and a degree, but my point is someone who has been doing the job has a proven track record, whereas a graduate hasn't. Why would employers prefer that?

In my opinion most degrees are overated, almost anyone can get one these days and they prove very little. Someone who has learnt on the job brings a lot more to the table.

And no it's not sour grapes, I did very well in my career thank you very much, and I have a degree. But Tony Blair didn't do anyone any favours by insisting half of school leavers shoud go on to University.

In my opinion most degrees are overated, almost anyone can get one these days and they prove very little. Someone who has learnt on the job brings a lot more to the table.

 

Around 35% of children go to university, of those 35% around 25% get A or A*

So employers will have a small percentage of the brightest to choose from.

If the CEOs mentioned are 'the best,' (and they are certainly paid as such,) they should have seen it coming and dealt with it before it hit. That's what they're paid (exorbitant amounts) for.

 

I worked in the private sector before I worked in the public sector. Unfortunately a lot of the private sector ethos has transferred to the public sector, much to its detriment. Many public services which should not be for profit, (eg carers and care homes,) are now being done by the private sector where profit for the shareholders is the only bottom line, and we can see the sad results.

 

As for 'brilliant managers,' time was when people with talent and experience were able to climb the career ladder from the bottom to the top. They were much respected by their employees, for that experience, and proved to be excellent managers. Unfortunately that has been superseeded by green as grass graduates being parachuted in, on the basis of paper qualifications and an interview or two. They often prove themselves unable to do the job and have to be carried by their staff. No wonder they are not respected.

 

And, talking of respect, please refrain from using phrases like 'left wing losers,' in your comments, which is offensive.

I'm not sure that being the best "widget maker" makes you the best manager of "widget makers"

I'm not sure that being the best "widget maker" makes you the best manager of "widget makers"

Yes, I see what you're saying, but then a graduate will know even less about widgets.

I'm sure a widget factory will have a plethora of different skills, including management to chose from.

Yes, I see what you're saying, but then a graduate will know even less about widgets.

 

I'm sure a widget factory will have a plethora of different skills, including management to chose from.

In one of my jobs we did a lot of work for BT.. managers there were moved around the business and expected to be able to manage any sort of project/situation..not just "widget making" ... management is a skill of it's own I think..

There will always be some jobs that require specific intensive training and a degree, but my point is someone who has been doing the job has a proven track record, whereas a graduate hasn't. Why would employers prefer that?

 

In my opinion most degrees are overated, almost anyone can get one these days and they prove very little. Someone who has learnt on the job brings a lot more to the table.

 

And no it's not sour grapes, I did very well in my career thank you very much, and I have a degree. But Tony Blair didn't do anyone any favours by insisting half of school leavers shoud go on to University.

They will only be any good at that specific job. Apprentices will never trump a graduate, especially in my field. They are competent but they will not be as versatile. Someone who is only shown how to do a job, will not have the vision to change it for the better if they don't know how to. That is what a degree brings. There is a reason why the likes of the Engineering Council makes the route to become chartered so much more straightforward for a graduate than someone without a degree.

They will only be any good at that specific job. Apprentices will never trump a graduate, especially in my field. They are competent but they will not be as versatile. Someone who is only shown how to do a job, will not have the vision to change it for the better if they don't know how to. That is what a degree brings. There is a reason why the likes of the Engineering Council makes the route to become chartered so much more straightforward for a graduate than someone without a degree.

Sorry but I have to disagree. You underestimate the knowledge and the willingness of a workforce who want to be given a chance to show what they can do, and overestimate a graduates's abilities, who think they know everything. Have you met any modern day Graduates recently? IMO They are not an inspiring bunch.

As for the Engineering Council, could it be that as with other councils,' they're trying to maintain an elitist 'closed shop?'

What about Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerrberg, Bill Gates et al? All dropped out of University and failed to graduate. Richard Branson never even started. The list is a long one.

Sorry but I have to disagree. You underestimate the knowledge and the willingness of a workforce who want to be given a chance to show what they can do, and overestimate a graduates's abilities, who think they know everything. Have you met any modern day Graduates recently? IMO They are not an inspiring bunch.

 

As for the Engineering Council, could it be that as with other councils,' they're trying to maintain an elitist 'closed shop?'

Yes, we have recruited half a dozen new engineering graduates and they have been absolutely superb. They have a great work ethic and are willing to learn. We remunerate very well and can select the people we need. We have only one recruited from the apprentice route, but he was an exception as he was arguably the best of his cohort. This is by no means the norm for us. If you don’t have a degree, you might as well not bother. Teaching an apprentice from scratch is too resource intensive. Why not just pick someone who already knows engineering principles and technical report writing for example, instead of spending months if not years to train?

As for the Engineering Council, you should be quiet on matters you have no authority to comment on. Have you read the UK-SPEC for chartership? The requirements are there in black and white. It isn’t some secretive election process it is very transparent. A graduate by virtue of what is learnt by attending university and getting an engineering degree fulfills a lot of the compentencies that are required. A university degree gives structured learning that is accredited by their respective engineering institutes. How many companies have training programmes that are accredited by engineering institutes? Not many at all.

---------- Post added 20-08-2018 at 21:02 ----------

What about Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerrberg, Bill Gates et al? All dropped out of University and failed to graduate. Richard Branson never even started. The list is a long one.

So a handful makes it a credible trend? Are you kidding me? Where on Earth did you get your degree from?

There are thousands of university dropouts that fail to make a decent living compared to those that don’t.

Around 35% of children go to university, of those 35% around 25% get A or A*

 

So employers will have a small percentage of the brightest to choose from.

The last time I saw the figures it was >50% going to university now.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/sep/28/almost-half-of-all-young-people-in-england-go-on-to-higher-education

Fraction under 50% actually, 49.

I've no idea about the reference to A and A*, degrees are not graded with letters.

75% apparently get a 2:1 or a 1st class degree.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/01/11/three-quarters-graduates-get-21-firsts-regulator-issues-warning/

---------- Post added 21-08-2018 at 07:35 ----------

In my opinion most degrees are overated, almost anyone can get one these days and they prove very little. Someone who has learnt on the job brings a lot more to the table.

This is just lazy thinking.

Would you like your doctor to 'learn on the job' and not have a degree?

How about the gal who designs your high rise building or suspension bridge?

Perhaps the person who writes the code for the autopilot on your next airliner (or tesla) shouldn't have been taught any computer science principles?

Maybe the teachers of your children or grandchildren shouldn't be any more qualified than the kids they are teaching? They can probably just pick it up as they go.

A large majority of degrees confirm skills that are difficult to teach in the workplace because they're abstract or not directly applicable to any single role, but they are nonetheless fundamental to making someone competent. They also prove a certain level of academic ability and self drive and a desire to learn.

This is why companies hire graduates, attacking them because you think CEOs are overpaid is not helping your argument at all.

---------- Post added 21-08-2018 at 07:39 ----------

The Swiss had a vote about a legal maximum pay ratio

https://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/21/opinion/sutter-swiss-executive-pay/index.html

---------- Post added 21-08-2018 at 07:40 ----------

They voted against it though;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/24/switzerland-votes-against-cap-executive-pay

The point of a living wage surely is it provides an unassisted basic wage for living at todays prices. Not what government calls it. Not what we call it. Not subsidized by public expenditure.

All other argument is semantics.