Is anyone familiar with 'The Exclusive Brethren' religious order?

[Mr Goose 10]

One would imagine that any supreme being could create the laws of nature to suit them. It certainly wouldn't do for a supreme being to create a universe where they couldn't exist. That would show a remarkable lack of planning.

A supreme being is not necessarily unknowable, is it?

 

 

The trouble is that the universe is hugely, deeply, random beyond what human understanding hinted at until the 20th C, both at the massive and quantum level.

 

Also, cosmologists can now model what happened just after the big bang.. that is 0.0000000001 of a second after the big bang. There is little room in the arguement for an inteligent being in the picture.

 

It is a case of don't add further unknowns (eg gods, space unicorns, clangers) to the picture to complicate the unknowns already there....

[plekhanov 10]

One would imagine that any supreme being could create the laws of nature to suit them. It certainly wouldn't do for a supreme being to create a universe where they couldn't exist. That would show a remarkable lack of planning.

 

A supreme being is not necessarily unknowable, is it?

Throughout history humans have claimed that numerous supreme beings exist so far as I’m aware all of them were supernatural and there is not a shred of evidence that any of them exist.

 

If however you can conceive of how a supreme being can exist within the laws of nature by all means explain to us how such a thing could be possible, if you have any evidence that this natural supreme being exists then feel free to present that as well.

 

Until you (or anybody else) does so all the evidence available to us suggests that a supreme being is so extraordinarily improbable that we can safely say with a high degree of certainty that no such being exists.

[Phanerothyme 12]

Throughout history humans have claimed that numerous supreme beings exist so far as I’m aware all of them were supernatural and there is not a shred of evidence that any of them exist.

 

What would constitute evidence?

[plekhanov 10]

What would constitute evidence?

Well that would very much depend on the nature of the supreme being in question wouldn't it.

 

A good starting point might be the existence of something in the universe which could not possibly have been produced through the working of natural forces

[Phanerothyme 12]

Well that would very much depend on the nature of the supreme being in question wouldn't it.

Indeed it would - are there different types?

A good starting point might be the existence of something in the universe which could not possibly have been produced through the working of natural forces

 

I think a better starting point might be the existence of a universe. What natural forces could bring it into being?

 

Is it possible that a natural force and a supreme being could be one and the same?

[plekhanov 10]

Indeed it would - are there different types?

Well people certainly seem to believe in a variety of supreme beings.

 

I think a better starting point might be the existence of a universe.

Why?

 

What natural forces could bring it into being?

The maths involved is completely beyond my level but there seems to be a consensus amongst scientists that the universe could have come into being through the working of natural forces.

 

In contrast to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever ever could up with a viable way in which a supreme being capable of creating the universe could come into being through the working of natural forces.

 

Is it possible that a natural force and a supreme being could be one and the same?

In what way?

[Phanerothyme 12]

Well people certainly seem to believe in a variety of supreme beings.

so there's some anecdotal evidence then? Interesting.

Why?

Because this universe did come into existence, in my limited understanding of it. Also because it is probable that this is not the only one (again in my limited understanding of the subject)

The maths involved is completely beyond my level but there seems to be a consensus amongst scientists that the universe could have come into being through the working of natural forces.

Again, my understanding differs. I thought the natural forces themselves were forged in the big bang, i.e. after it came into being.

In contrast to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever ever could up with a viable way in which a supreme being capable of creating the universe could come into being through the working of natural forces.

Well asking anyone to come up with a mechanism by which the supreme being itself could spontaneously emerge through the workings of natural forces, resident only in a universe it is yet to create, is a pretty tall order - you must admit.

[purdyamos 10]

Its because you need to have some degree of selectivity - if ANY evidence EVER came along for ANY supernatural activity I would be interested.

 

However - the list of supernatiral beliefs is very long - unicorns, ghosts, tarot cards, UFO's, crop circles, ESP, crystal twiddling etc - that is in addition to the approximate 2,500 gods "formally" worshipped in human history.

 

 

:thumbsup:

 

 

Being a "Freethinker" is having an open mind, but not having an open mind to the degree where your brain falls out

 

(I forget who said that first)[/

 

Dr Joan Borysenko (I didn't know that either, but felt duty bound to look it up!)

[plekhanov 10]

so there's some anecdotal evidence then? Interesting.

Surely you are aware that there is an abundance of anecdotal evidence from theists the world over claiming to have personal experience of a variety of supreme beings.

 

Because this universe did come into existence, in my limited understanding of it. Also because it is probable that this is not the only one (again in my limited understanding of the subject)

And why should any of that lead you to think there's a supreme being?

 

Again, my understanding differs. I thought the natural forces themselves were forged in the big bang, i.e. after it came into being.

That doesn't mean that the big bang itself wasn't a natural event.

 

Well asking anyone to come up with a mechanism by which the supreme being itself could spontaneously emerge through the workings of natural forces, resident only in a universe it is yet to create, is a pretty tall order - you must admit.

That's rather my point, we know the natural workings of the universe can create very complex things like us from the simplest of beginnings through a process of evolution through natural selection. In contrast we are aware of no way in which a necessarily extraordinarily complex 'supreme being' both willing and able to create the universe could have come into existence.

[Mr Goose 10]

Again, my understanding differs. I thought the natural forces themselves were forged in the big bang, i.e. after it came into being.

.

 

 

I often mention this book - but here is the full title

 

"Coming of Age in the Milky Way"

Timothy Ferris

 

Its about the development of ideas of what the universe is, "Aristotle to the Big Bang". While its a pop science book, it is no light read. But, it is really well written.. and it makes the best attempts I have read to explain how quantum stuff, Einstien, Hawkings etc all fit together..

 

After reading it - you must have a level of brainwashing faith to believe in the NEED for supernatural agents!

 

(There is quite a good chapter on Darwin as well, but it is a little light,and obv written by a non bioligist)

 

Mr Space Goose

[Heeley tyke 10]

Hagardriley said,

"Typhoo may have put the 'T' in Britain, but I'm having doubts about what they put in Saturday."

 

Or. for that matter, what they put in Scunthorpe, Penistone or Derwentwater!!!

[Wayneo 1 10]

Hi,

 

A few years ago I went to work for a family of Plymouth Brethren at Their business at rotherham. I was basically employed to run a simple computer system for them as they, themselves could not use computers. I aslo worked in their warehouse.

 

To us outsiders, there ways do seem rather odd and maybe a little intimidating, they kept their belifs to themselves and didnt at any time push their belifs on you. but in all honesty, i found them to be very nice people to work for. I remember starting their a few weeks before xmas and had just been made redundant, to my surprise they gave me a £200 binus ontop of my wage.

 

They are also very much family oriented people and look after eachother as well as people who they are associated with.

 

Obviously not speaking for the entire movement but the Bretren that I met were fantsatic.