Quran and Modern Science - Conflict or Conciliation?

[Rzaa]

OK , well that first video is over 90 minutes long and appears to simply be a televised recording of the Islamic Research Foundation conference or summit.

 

The 'science' (not the signs) that the main speaker is talking about were already well established truths by the time of Mohammed. That the Koran can codify existing discoveries isn't rocket science, it's writing up other peoples ideas as if they were divinely inspired.

 

The most amusing bit is when he does his 'Koran Quotation Solo' on the motion of celestial bodies. People even clap - like a Jazz solo. It reminds me of a passage in "The Futurological Congress" by Stan Lem, where speakers merely quote paragraph references at each other in a strange meta-discourse that is completely impenetrable.

 

They were not established 1400 years ago (the sun, moon and the earth spin on their own axis established 1400 years ago?). Its not about codification like the Bible codes, its about them being revealed 1400 years ago and us only now knowing about then now when modern science has caught up.

 

They are clapping at how he is able to reference from memory not only with the Quran but the Old and New testaments, the Hindu scriptures and many other religious scriptures.

[Phanerothyme]

They were not established 1400 years ago (the sun, moon and the earth spin on their own axis established 1400 years ago?). Its not about codification like the Bible codes, its about them being revealed 1400 years ago and us only now knowing about then now when modern science has caught up.

Greek mathematicians and cosmologists proposed atomic theory, independently discovered irrational numbers, and put the sun at the centre of the known universe (i.e the solar system) well before 200 BCE.

 

The peoples of India and China had progressed equally far if not further by this stage. Chinese astronomers made accounts of a supernova, predicted eclipses, periodic comets and understood the retrograde motion of mars well before christ was born.

 

Indian mathematicians had invented algebra and algorithms long before islamic mathematicians introduced them to europe under arabic names. They had also defined the concept of 0 (zero) and NULL SET, and by the year 200 had determine the exact length of the earth's sidereal year (actually they were 1.4 seconds out but it was still the most accurate measurement until well over a millenium later).

 

By the time of the Koran, the Persians had made great use of information from all three strands of knowledge, and in time provided fertilization for a long period of Islamic science and astronomy, which in turn contributed to the rennaissance in Europe.

 

That it got included in the Koran, as some kind of divine inspiration, after the fact is not in any way a validation that the Book contains 'knowledge ahead of its time'.

 

They are clapping at how he is able to reference from memory not only with the Quran but the Old and New testaments, the Hindu scriptures and many other religious scriptures.

 

Fairy nuff. Strike 'Koran Solo' and insert 'Holy Scripture Solo'.

[discodown]

How do you know that pink_ninja is easily persuaded?

because he said so

[discodown]

Quran copied from the bible? If there are two history books does one have had to have been copied from the other? Wouldn’t the Quran have copied the parts that are untrue, the errors? I can elaborate if you want.

please do. i wouldn't go so far as to say it copied the bible but it was certainly influenced by it. as i understand it the quran makes reference to lots of things in the bible and jesus is regarded as an important prophet in islam.

 

(feel free to correct me)

[kay_cee]

If he was indeed as you say then he would not have been chosen as the final prophet and the Final Revelations would not have been revealed to him.

Well thats settled that then.

He was no 'final prophet' and no 'final revelations' were revealed to him.

 

If he was as you say then why wait years after the marriage to consummate it?

What? why did he wait until she reached the ripe old age of 9 before he slept with her??

 

So, He was now 55 and she was 9 years old.

 

I guess that makes all the difference.

[Rzaa]

Greek mathematicians and cosmologists proposed atomic theory, independently discovered irrational numbers, and put the sun at the centre of the known universe (i.e the solar system) well before 200 BCE.

 

The peoples of India and China had progressed equally far if not further by this stage. Chinese astronomers made accounts of a supernova, predicted eclipses, periodic comets and understood the retrograde motion of mars well before christ was born.

 

Indian mathematicians had invented algebra and algorithms long before islamic mathematicians introduced them to europe under arabic names. They had also defined the concept of 0 (zero) and NULL SET, and by the year 200 had determine the exact length of the earth's sidereal year (actually they were 1.4 seconds out but it was still the most accurate measurement until well over a millenium later).

 

By the time of the Koran, the Persians had made great use of information from all three strands of knowledge, and in time provided fertilization for a long period of Islamic science and astronomy, which in turn contributed to the rennaissance in Europe.

 

That it got included in the Koran, as some kind of divine inspiration, after the fact is not in any way a validation that the Book contains 'knowledge ahead of its time'.

 

 

 

Fairy nuff. Strike 'Koran Solo' and insert 'Holy Scripture Solo'.

 

Wouldn’t the things that were not correct have been copied also? The Greeks also said many other things that are now proven to be false. How would anyone know what to pick as correct and what to leave out?

[Phanerothyme]

Wouldn’t the things that were not correct have been copied also? The Greeks also said many other things that are now proven to be false. How would anyone know what to pick as correct and what to leave out?

Are you conceding the point that these things were known about at the time of writing of both the Koran and the Bible, or do you still maintain they were not?

The Greeks also said many other things that are now proven to be false. How would anyone know what to pick as correct and what to leave out?

Well that is obvious - if they didn't leave anything out they would have just copied it all? Sounds absurd doesn't it.

 

As for inaccuracies being copied, one would imagine that the propositions that were demonstrably true (e.g heliocentric planetary orbital mechanics - required to predict eclipses, periodic comet returns, etc.), would be adopted and those that were not, would be rejected.

 

Likewise the stages of foetal development - easily confirmed by cutting open the uteruses of female cadavers at varying stages of pregnancy.

 

Theories about atomic structure, the four elements, the aether etc, proved much harder to substantiate then as now, because they are fundamentally wrong. (although the aether stayed with us for quite a while).

 

The knowledge was not exclusive to the Koran at the time of writing, nor to it at any time after that.

[Rzaa]

Are you conceding the point that these things were known about at the time of writing of both the Koran and the Bible, or do you still maintain they were not?

 

How could they have been known? The technology did not exist to prove them. They could only have been theories. If there were theories in the Quran then some should have been proven false by now.

 

The point is the Quran does not conflict with established science.

[Rzaa]

Well thats settled that then.

He was no 'final prophet' and no 'final revelations' were revealed to him.

 

It’s only settled for you because the Quran says believe in one God and you being a Christian (I’m guessing from some of your other posts that you’re a Christian) have a big problem believing in just ONE God.

 

The Father (1), The Son (2) and The Holy Spirit (3), oh no it’s not 3 its 1 but no its 3 but 1. What example will you use? The Egg? Ice, Water, Vapour? Do you even understand it yourself?

How can a God die?

If he was a man then he's not god or a god or a son of a god.

Why'd he pray?

Who did he pray to? Himself?

[Plain Talker]

in medieval times, our princes and princesses were married off at ages from toddler to barely in their teens. (another example- look at romeo and juliet:- she was only 12/13 at the time of their story. I recall the history books relating that one princess was married off to another prince whilst her mother was still blooming-well pregnant with her for crying out loud!")

 

does that suggest that the kings of the time were gary glitters in the making? or supporters of child-sex?

 

no, because the marriages were not consummated until the parties were old enough to do so, I.E. post-puberty.

 

If you look into Islam, the age of "9" is used to describe an age at which a child has a sort of self-awareness/ self-determination, that bridge between child and adulthood. (the equivalent of the uk's "age of criminal responsibility" if you like). it's the age where a person is expected to be able to fast, at which a female, in some societies, takes on the head-covering, etc.

 

it's like the arbitrary age in the bible, of "thirty" where men are considered "old-and-wise" enough to take on certain ministerial obligations, like teaching, being a rabbi, etc.

 

We have no actual proof that the prophet had actual marital relations with the girl, at her achieving the exact age of nine. it says he didn't touch her in that way till she was over puberty. (in the middle east, marriages were made when girls and boys were as young as 13 or 14. it was the way in that society, then, and no-one saw it as out of order)

 

As I understood it, he took her into his household/ family as a means of protecting and supporting her, as an orphan, not for nefarious purposes.

 

PT