What the Dutch get right..and the English don't

[andrejuan 10]

They built my car so they are alright in my book

[tzijlstra 11]

Where's tim when you need him?

 

Haha! I have been taking a forum sabbatical (more or less), I'm spending most of my time behind the screen learning how to use video-editing software at the moment and I am getting a bit addicted to it...

 

Anyway, on the subject of the Netherlands. You have to keep in mind crazyhorse that the Dutch pay rather exorbitant amounts of tax for the pleasure of keeping the country well managed. That, coupled with a natural believe that the country we live in is manageable and thus should be managed combines to the pleasant experience you had.

 

the reason you don't see a lot of speeding on dual carriageways is because the amounts of taxes we pay aren't enough, so the police collect some more in the shape of speeding-fines.

 

What I am very positive about, though, is the infrastructure for cyclists. You will have noticed that in the Netherlands, on equal roads, traffic coming from the right always has right of way. It means drivers are far more considerate, the whole infrastructure of our towns and cities is designed around this principle and it means that in built-up areas people just don't speed. The roads don't allow for it. (And there is always that policeman on roads where they do allow for it...)

 

British roads are completely geared towards cars, in my opinion that is something that needs to change, but it requires a collective push. I am rather puzzled why the Amey work, for example, hasn't been used by the council to make considerable changes to the way cyclists move around the city. Would have been an ideal chance?

 

PS - on football hooligans, nothing worse than here. Just idiots who claim to support a club but instead get drunk and start smashing each others' heads in. None of that with the National team by the way, it is mainly Feyenoord, Ajax, Utrecht and ADO fans that still persist in that idiotic culture.

Edited June 13, 2016 by tzijlstra

[ez8004 10]

Holland has some of the best workers' rights and laws on the planet.

 

Why do you think Tata Steel Europe automatically starts cutting its costs and jobs from the UK first? It is far cheaper and easier to do so compared to Ijmuiden. Not to mention their European Works Council actually has influence compared to the lame unions in this country.

[tzijlstra 11]

Holland has some of the best workers' rights and laws on the planet.

 

Why do you think Tata Steel Europe automatically starts cutting its costs and jobs from the UK first? It is far cheaper and easier to do so compared to Ijmuiden. Not to mention their European Works Council actually has influence compared to the lame unions in this country.

 

It used to, it has all been eroded in the last ten years to create a 'flexible' workforce. Most people in the Netherlands who aren't fortunate enough to already have been in a permanent job now get told, when the third annual renewal which should make their work permanent is due; 'sorry, we can't hire you, go do something else for three months and then we can take you back on.' Simply because of the way the law works. This way the employer avoids getting full responsibility for the pension of the employee.

 

Tata is staying in the Netherlands because the Dutch aren't British. Dutch management culture is to be ruthless but with a firm eye on investment. Hoogovens (as it was before Corus, before British Steel, before Tata) were always at the frontline of innovation, working closely with Dutch universities. It is based directly on a deep sea harbour (it is amazing how few of the British Steel works actually are) and it has made a profit every year since Tata took over.

 

On top of that, the Dutch government has been fighting tooth and nail in Europe to deal with Chinese steel imports, whereas Javid has been trying to get it to continue. If you are a huge multinational that is suffering because of these steel dumps, where do you continue to invest?

[blake 10]

basing your impression on a cycling holiday where the Netherlands will obviously shine, may not be the best way to come to a balanced conclusion to where the country is headed as a whole.

 

there was a really rather hard-hitting article in the Guardian last week concerning the Netherlands : http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/06/netherlands-eu-immigration-liberalism-european

 

Once a beacon of progressive politics, the Netherlands today is a traumatised, angry and deeply confused nation. Support for immigration and the European project are at all-time lows. Synagogues and Jewish schools need police protection from homegrown jihadists, and freedom of expression is under serious pressure. An unprecedented series of catastrophes have hit the country over the past 15 years. Three high-profile political murders. The country’s first mass shooting. An attempt on Queen Beatrix’s life in which eight people died. And finally the downing over Ukraine of an airliner, nearly two years ago, killing all 298 on board. Of those, 193 were Dutch, meaning that, relative to population-size, the country suffered a larger loss of life than the US did on 9/11. Self-confidence is gone and what will take its place is anyone’s guess. What seems certain is that the heady days of progressive optimism are not coming back.

 

As for the football, the Netherlands did not even qualify for this year’s European Championship.

 

together with Germany's decaying infrastructure now meaning a commuter train is less likely to be on time there than a British train is, the old assumptions that used to be heard a lot, about Europe's 'superiority' in efficiency, can no longer be so easily made.

[spilldig 190]

When we visited Amsterdam last year a drunken Dutchman on a push bike nearly knocked me into the canal. He was really swaying so he was high on something. Anyway it was a nice break.

[APrice 10]

I think the Netherlands is doing fairly extensive trials of Universal Basic Income. I think it'd be interested to see similar trials run in some comparable northern cities.

[DnAuK 10]

As with England, there are a similar amount of people, but the impact on their urban environment and their society in general, seems to be much better handled than in England.

 

Any thoughts?

 

On my very first visit to Amsterdam (many years ago) I ended up in a bar on a Sunday afternoon with some quite rowdy but good natured Ajax fans singing songs and swigging beer. When we asked who they had played it turned out they hadn't yet - they were on their way to play PSV and we could come along if we wanted. No sense of malice or antagonism or anything. It was such a great experience.

 

I have since been many times, but the high tax level mentioned by Tim, plus the high cost of property in Amsterdam has always put me off moving there. Though I have learned more recently it drops dramatically just 20 minutes or so from the city centre. So maybe worth a revisit.

 

Just picking up on one point you made tho. Similar amount of people? Population of the Netherlands in 2013 was quoted as 16.8m . England was 53m. So I think it's fair to say our systems are a bit overstreched and our big cities crowded. Maybe that itself doesn't help?

[Glennis 15]

Growing tulips.

 

Yes, they have some lovely bulb fields.

[tzijlstra 11]

On my very first visit to Amsterdam (many years ago) I ended up in a bar on a Sunday afternoon with some quite rowdy but good natured Ajax fans singing songs and swigging beer. When we asked who they had played it turned out they hadn't yet - they were on their way to play PSV and we could come along if we wanted. No sense of malice or antagonism or anything. It was such a great experience.

 

I have since been many times, but the high tax level mentioned by Tim, plus the high cost of property in Amsterdam has always put me off moving there. Though I have learned more recently it drops dramatically just 20 minutes or so from the city centre. So maybe worth a revisit.

 

Just picking up on one point you made tho. Similar amount of people? Population of the Netherlands in 2013 was quoted as 16.8m . England was 53m. So I think it's fair to say our systems are a bit overstreched and our big cities crowded. Maybe that itself doesn't help?

 

The Netherlands is far smaller than the UK though. It is about people per square kilometre. After Taiwan, South Korea, Lebanon and Rwanda (ie. the most dense in Europe) the Netherlands is the most populated 'real' country in the world. 404/km according to the latest figures. The UK is considerably less densely populated at 262. England itself though is a bit higher, around 416/km. So in that sense there isn't a lot between the two.

 

If you are considering moving to the Netherlands but house prices in Amsterdam (rightly, they are exorbitant) put you off, have a look at 'Amsterdam Light' - Utrecht, more affordable and a very similar city in style etc. Similar distance to Schiphol as well. I prefer Rotterdam though, it is far more cosmopolitan/modern than most places in the Netherlands and property is actually quite affordable there.

[crazyhorse 37]

It used to, it has all been eroded in the last ten years to create a 'flexible' workforce. Most people in the Netherlands who aren't fortunate enough to already have been in a permanent job now get told, when the third annual renewal which should make their work permanent is due; 'sorry, we can't hire you, go do something else for three months and then we can take you back on.' Simply because of the way the law works. This way the employer avoids getting full responsibility for the pension of the employee.

 

Tata is staying in the Netherlands because the Dutch aren't British. Dutch management culture is to be ruthless but with a firm eye on investment. Hoogovens (as it was before Corus, before British Steel, before Tata) were always at the frontline of innovation, working closely with Dutch universities. It is based directly on a deep sea harbour (it is amazing how few of the British Steel works actually are) and it has made a profit every year since Tata took over.

 

On top of that, the Dutch government has been fighting tooth and nail in Europe to deal with Chinese steel imports, whereas Javid has been trying to get it to continue. If you are a huge multinational that is suffering because of these steel dumps, where do you continue to invest?

 

Funny you should mention Tata.

 

We were in a café in Stompwijk and my youngest was wearing a T shirt for a Tata sponsored sports event at his school and the locals specifically asked if I worked for Tata.

 

---------- Post added 18-06-2016 at 01:00 ----------

 

Haha! I have been taking a forum sabbatical (more or less), I'm spending most of my time behind the screen learning how to use video-editing software at the moment and I am getting a bit addicted to it...

 

Anyway, on the subject of the Netherlands. You have to keep in mind crazyhorse that the Dutch pay rather exorbitant amounts of tax for the pleasure of keeping the country well managed. That, coupled with a natural believe that the country we live in is manageable and thus should be managed combines to the pleasant experience you had.

 

the reason you don't see a lot of speeding on dual carriageways is because the amounts of taxes we pay aren't enough, so the police collect some more in the shape of speeding-fines.

 

What I am very positive about, though, is the infrastructure for cyclists. You will have noticed that in the Netherlands, on equal roads, traffic coming from the right always has right of way. It means drivers are far more considerate, the whole infrastructure of our towns and cities is designed around this principle and it means that in built-up areas people just don't speed. The roads don't allow for it. (And there is always that policeman on roads where they do allow for it...)

 

British roads are completely geared towards cars, in my opinion that is something that needs to change, but it requires a collective push. I am rather puzzled why the Amey work, for example, hasn't been used by the council to make considerable changes to the way cyclists move around the city. Would have been an ideal chance?

 

PS - on football hooligans, nothing worse than here. Just idiots who claim to support a club but instead get drunk and start smashing each others' heads in. None of that with the National team by the way, it is mainly Feyenoord, Ajax, Utrecht and ADO fans that still persist in that idiotic culture.

 

I suspected the tax bill might well be a bit higher...there were a lot of people in fluorescent jackets cutting the grass

[John Hope 10]

Holland:

 

Flat as a board

Dutch like the English

Everyone under 50 is fluent in English

The bicycle is king, kerbs are even angled for bicycles

The Dutch are tall

If you work overtime the company must provide a meal

Taxes are like 60%

Takes 5 minutes to get a Dutch social security number using your British passport as ID

Very liberal

Lots of Dutch flags flown everywhere