Consequences Of Brexit [Part 9] Read First Post Before Posting

[L00b 441]

1 hour ago, Magilla said:

Some good news at last...

 

It’s official: UK to associate to Horizon Europe:

https://sciencebusiness.net/news/horizon-europe/its-official-uk-associate-horizon-europe

 

YAY!

 

 

Sadly, the usual Brexit caveats of more for less:

 

The UK will pay in “almost €2.6 billion” a year for its participation, the announcement confirms... ~£1bn more p.a than Pre-Brexit.

 

Also, another fly in the ointment is that the UK is not going to rejoin Euratom, so is also out of ITER

 

 

Xmas dinner analogy: you bought yourselves a seat at the kiddy table 😉

 

Still…now you’re in the same room. 
 

A welcome development. Now, for more 🙌🏻

[Organgrinder 1,946]

38 minutes ago, harvey19 said:

N. Ireland is part of the UK and therefore the power there is not foreign.

You are mixing up reality now and history.

1921 over 100 years ago the country was divided and maybe it is time to join it again but the views of those in the north have to be taken into consideration. Families have lived in N. Ireland for probably 5 generations and feel they belong in the U.K. / N.Ireland. The planters developed the country in many ways.

Do you wish to disregard the views of the protestants ?

The troubles in N.Ireland were horrific and so it is hard for many to accept that a terrorist campaign achieved its aim.

The ideal to unify the country is a wonderful rallying point until the southern government realise the problems they may encounter and the financial losses .

It is not as straightforward as a sentimental /emotive wish.

I have tried to be objective in my posts and maybe highlight points often overlooked.

 

Northern Ireland is regarded as a part of the UK by the British governmet, which doesn't mean that it is.

It was taken at gunpoint by a greater power as was Gibraltar and many other places in this world.

The world didn't begin 100 years ago and Ireland was a country in it's own right before we came along  with our usual bully tactics.

The  views of the whole nation bother me and not just those of the protestants.

 I won't even discuss unification with you because you come at it  from entirely the wrong viewpoint.

You believe that we are giving them something rather than handing back something we stole and you easily forget how many we tortured and murdered.

Would you not have fought an invader of your country ?

 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Organgrinder

[harvey19 541]

33 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

Northern Ireland is regarded as a part of the UK by the British governmet, which doesn't mean that it is.

It was taken at gunpoint by a greater power as was Gibraltar and many other places in this world.

The world didn't begin 100 years ago and Ireland was a country in it's own right before we came along  with our usual bully tactics.

The  views of the whole nation bother me and not just those of the protestants.

 I won't even discuss unification with you because you come at it  from entirely the wrong viewpoint.

You believe that we are giving them something rather than handing back something we stole and you easily forget how many we tortured and murdered.

Would you not have fought an invader of your country ?

 

 

I must confess that I do not know the complete history of our country past or know how things were done in historical days.

Obviously the views of all must be taken into consideration but the views of those who have lived in N.Ireland for centuries must not be ignored just to fulfil the ideal of reunification. Many people want to stay part of the UK.

It was the Scots who went over the water who developed the country.

Who did we torture and murder ?

Northern Ireland is pat of the UK and so accepted as such world wide.

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by harvey19

[harvey19 541]

Shouldn't this thread be about Brexit ?

Seems as though we have strayed from the original point of people entering the Uk via Southern Ireland.

To bring it back on topic I will repeat my initial question which was,

To enforce the governments vow to secure our borders should we have passport controls on the border between north and south Ireland  to check people from EU and other countries ?

[m williamson 802]

1 hour ago, harvey19 said:

There are many in the north who do not want reunification and I will repeat that I have been told many in the south do not want the problems of N. Ireland brought to them.

Presumably you did not experience the Troubles personally or lost loved ones  and so may have a different perspective of things to those who lived through them.

I am not aware of all the details of your first paragraph or the dates  but the power in N.Ireland is not foreign.

If some of those in the north want to leave the UK they need to realise the financial benefits they will lose.

 

 

There are also many in Northern Ireland that do want reunification and when the time comes when they are the majority it will happen.

No, fortunately for me I didn't experience the Troubles personally but I have sympathy for those who did, from whatever background they came.

Your statement that the power in Northern Ireland is not foreign is simply incredible, and shows that you have no idea about the situation nor about the country you are talking about.

Northern Ireland is an integral part of Ireland, and Ireland is not and never has been a part of Britain.  Why do you think so many people have sacrificed their lives over the centuries in an effort to free Ireland from interference from another country?

 

What financial benefits will Northern Ireland residents lose? Ireland is wealthier than any part of the UK with the exception of the South East of England where the figures are slewed by the City of London Corporation, an autonomous jurisdiction not answerable to the laws of parliament.  https://www.worldeconomics.com/Thoughts/Has-Union-with-Britain-Been-an-Economic-Calamity-for-Northern-Ireland-V2.aspx

 

Any benefits they have accrued through paying tax to the UK will still be available to them and the future for their families will be far more favourable in a united Ireland.

 

You keep on claiming that many in the Republic don't want reunification. What is your evidence? I've provided links to polls carried out that prove differently, I've lived there, have family there and visit regularly, I have never heard any person there in over 70+ years state that they don't want their country to be reunited.

 

[harvey19 541]

3 hours ago, m williamson said:

If a country is occupied by a foreign power and it has attempted over many many years to persuade that foreign power to leave and stop interfering in their affairs, yet that foreign power has refused to do so, even refusing to honour a national vote for independence carried out under its jurisdiction and rules, what exactly do you think those people who wish to be free should do about it?

 

It's an old saying but a true one, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

The majority of people in the Republic want to see their country reunited. My experience of life in the Republic goes back to the fifties, I visited every year and spent up to two months there with my family. After leaving school in Sheffield we moved there and I attended a technical college there.

Most of my family are Irish and I have many friends there as well. Over all those years I've never heard a single person say they didn't want their country reunited.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/republic-of-ireland-irish-people-irish-times-mary-lou-mcdonald-b1974189.html

 

I don't believe it will happen in my lifetime and that's okay as I want it to happen as peacefully as possible. Another twenty years or so in the history of such a nation is nothing at the end of the day.

 

" Ireland is not a daughter State. She is a parent nation, The Irish are an ancient race. "

Winston Churchill speech 1948

Another saying is that...Anyone who says they understand the Irish problem does not understand it !

As I have said previously I think reunification will happen but it may be 2 generations away when the Troubles are history and all survivors of them are past just like the 1950s campaign faded away.

All over the world most people just want to live an happy and peaceful life.

 

[m williamson 802]

10 minutes ago, harvey19 said:

Shouldn't this thread be about Brexit ?

Seems as though we have strayed from the original point of people entering the Uk via Southern Ireland.

To bring it back on topic I will repeat my initial question which was,

To enforce the governments vow to secure our borders should we have passport controls on the border between north and south Ireland  to check people from EU and other countries ?

That horse has ridden, it's not going to happen, it never could have happened, it would have meant a return to violence by providing a physical target for dissidents.

The fact that it was even discussed shows how uninformed people including British politicians were/are.

 

 

4 minutes ago, harvey19 said:

Another saying is that...Anyone who says they understand the Irish problem does not understand it !

As I have said previously I think reunification will happen but it may be 2 generations away when the Troubles are history and all survivors of them are past just like the 1950s campaign faded away.

All over the world most people just want to live an happy and peaceful life.

 

That was the plan, allow generations to pass and achieve reunification peacefully. Brexit altered that, it all came to a head again. Perhaps the Brexiteers should have taken that into consideration but I doubt they gave it a single thought.

[harvey19 541]

3 minutes ago, m williamson said:

There are also many in Northern Ireland that do want reunification and when the time comes when they are the majority it will happen.

No, fortunately for me I didn't experience the Troubles personally but I have sympathy for those who did, from whatever background they came.

Your statement that the power in Northern Ireland is not foreign is simply incredible, and shows that you have no idea about the situation nor about the country you are talking about.

Northern Ireland is an integral part of Ireland, and Ireland is not and never has been a part of Britain.  Why do you think so many people have sacrificed their lives over the centuries in an effort to free Ireland from interference from another country?

 

What financial benefits will Northern Ireland residents lose? Ireland is wealthier than any part of the UK with the exception of the South East of England where the figures are slewed by the City of London Corporation, an autonomous jurisdiction not answerable to the laws of parliament.  https://www.worldeconomics.com/Thoughts/Has-Union-with-Britain-Been-an-Economic-Calamity-for-Northern-Ireland-V2.aspx

 

Any benefits they have accrued through paying tax to the UK will still be available to them and the future for their families will be far more favourable in a united Ireland.

 

You keep on claiming that many in the Republic don't want reunification. What is your evidence? I've provided links to polls carried out that prove differently, I've lived there, have family there and visit regularly, I have never heard any person there in over 70+ years state that they don't want their country to be reunited.

 

Northern Ireland is part of the Uk I just do not understand how anyone can deny this. As a result the power comes from Westminster via Stormont and enforced by crown forces when necessary.

To turn your quote around, why do you think so many soldiers, policemen died since 1969 supporting the crown.

We could go on back and forward about the situation but one thing I am sure of is that we know very little of what is going on behind the scenes.

I think we have exhausted the subject and will just have to wait and see.

[Organgrinder 1,946]

2 hours ago, harvey19 said:

Northern Ireland is part of the Uk I just do not understand how anyone can deny this. As a result the power comes from Westminster via Stormont and enforced by crown forces when necessary.

To turn your quote around, why do you think so many soldiers, policemen died since 1969 supporting the crown.

We could go on back and forward about the situation but one thing I am sure of is that we know very little of what is going on behind the scenes.

I think we have exhausted the subject and will just have to wait and see.

Not to a lot of the Irish.          And also in my mind, Ireland belongs to the Irish people and not us.

Perhaps you would have understood if Hitler had taken Britain in 1940     -     would you have said    "That's fine,  we belong to Germany now"?

Many soldiers and policemen died because it was their job to follow the orders they were given   -   you already know that as ex army.

You may be happy to believe that every order is quite correct and that all orders supersede right and wrong,   but many no longer accept that and I am one of that many.    That's why we have War Crimes

I know a bit more than a little about our behaviour in Ireland and I am ashamed of it   and also ashamed on behalf of anyone like you,  who condones it.

 

[m williamson 802]

2 hours ago, harvey19 said:

Northern Ireland is part of the Uk I just do not understand how anyone can deny this. As a result the power comes from Westminster via Stormont and enforced by crown forces when necessary.

To turn your quote around, why do you think so many soldiers, policemen died since 1969 supporting the crown.

We could go on back and forward about the situation but one thing I am sure of is that we know very little of what is going on behind the scenes.

I think we have exhausted the subject and will just have to wait and see.

Why did so many soldiers and police officers die supporting the crown?  Because that is what people who sign up to serve a country do.

They follow orders, whether or not they agree with them or even understand them " Ours not to reason why, ours but to do and die ".

 

Do you hold the Russian soldiers that are fighting and dying against Ukraine responsible for the situation? They are in the wrong, but it is not their fault,  I sympathise for those that are following orders but have nothing but contempt for those who are using the opportunity to commit war crimes.

The same applies in Northern Ireland.

I started my own business in 1984, after a year I needed additional help, the man I offered a  fellow directorship to was a man I had worked with for years previously in the same industry. I trusted him completely, he was a hard working, knowledgeable and decent person.

He was also an ex British soldier who had served in Northern Ireland. During the sixteen years we worked together as fellow directors we had numerous conversations about Ireland. He  -   didn't -   have -  a -  clue.  Not being a yes man ( in any way 🙄 ) he would check out the things I told him.

He came to accept that I had a point.

 

You are correct, the thread is about the consequences of Brexit, one of which is the Northern Irish situation.

 

The news that we are now having to pay more money in order to take part in the Horizon Project is something we should take on board.

[cuttsie 1,093]

The rise of the far  right in the union is alarming in my opinion , From Hungary , Poland , France and even Germany they are on the move . 

That is why so many are risking their lives to reach our shores ,  

The.UK seems to be the whipping boy for many on these threads but they seem to forget that when fascism rises its ugly head we were the only ones to a appose it , 

 

Others stood by and even had Dialogue with Germany when they invaded others .

 

OK we are not perfect but it seems as though half the World wants to live here , not France , not Germany , nor Italy and not Ireland !!!!here in the UK . 

I voted Brexit , I thought about it and decided that we are better of being separate from another Soviets style state .

After watching the newsreels of late with the riots and disarray in certain Euro members City's I  am 

more than ever convinced I was right to do so .

[harvey19 541]

6 hours ago, Organgrinder said:

Not to a lot of the Irish.          And also in my mind, Ireland belongs to the Irish people and not us.

Perhaps you would have understood if Hitler had taken Britain in 1940     -     would you have said    "That's fine,  we belong to Germany now"?

Many soldiers and policemen died because it was their job to follow the orders they were given   -   you already know that as ex army.

You may be happy to believe that every order is quite correct and that all orders supersede right and wrong,   but many no longer accept that and I am one of that many.    That's why we have War Crimes

I know a bit more than a little about our behaviour in Ireland and I am ashamed of it   and also ashamed on behalf of anyone like you,  who condones it.

 

Again you mix up reality of the present day and what you do not agree with.

Reality is that N. Ireland is part of the UK site 1921. However that came about it is a fact.

War crimes are not relevant to the Troubles as the army were acting in aid of the civil powers to stop criminal acts. The Geneva Convention did not apply.

I do not condone illegal behaviour by any side.