Gender Fluid etc, Opinions?

[WiseOwl182]

11 minutes ago, Waldo said:

Haven't read that, hard to believe there is any credible evidence that being born male and competing as a female doesn't offer any advantages.

 

...in any case, have lost interest in the topic due to being merged with a general gender fluid thread. The topic I started was specifically about transgender women competing against other women in sport. Kinda sucky it's been merged, but there you go.

I disagree with Cyclone's argument and the evidence doesn't show anywhere that male physical characteristics developed in puberty (and that no amount of hormonal treatment will reverse) give no advantage over natural females.

[Cyclone]

3 hours ago, Yeah but said:

I don't buy it.  If Anthony Joshua decided to transform himself to a woman he'd have no advantage against actual women?? yeah sure.

 

Well, we've got either evidence, or your conjecture.  I know which I'm going to go with for the moment.

1 hour ago, WiseOwl182 said:

I disagree with Cyclone's argument and the evidence doesn't show anywhere that male physical characteristics developed in puberty (and that no amount of hormonal treatment will reverse) give no advantage over natural females.

I mean, except that it explicitly shows exactly that.  You've just decided that you don't want to believe it.  It showed it so clearly that you had to keep trying to make some point about shoulder width rather than actually disputing anything in the study, which had a very clear conclusion.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Cyclone

[Yeah but]

40 minutes ago, Cyclone said:

Well, we've got either evidence, or your conjecture.  I know which I'm going to go with for the moment.

I mean, except that it explicitly shows exactly that.  You've just decided that you don't want to believe it.  It showed it so clearly that you had to keep trying to make some point about shoulder width rather than actually disputing anything in the study, which had a very clear conclusion.

The people that conduct these studies are cowed by political correctness and will say anything to keep the SJW's off their back.

 

btw, isn't chemically altering ones physicality prohibited in competitive sport?

Edited April 26, 2019 by Yeah but

[WiseOwl182]

1 hour ago, Cyclone said:

 

I mean, except that it explicitly shows exactly that.  You've just decided that you don't want to believe it.  It showed it so clearly that you had to keep trying to make some point about shoulder width rather than actually disputing anything in the study, which had a very clear conclusion.

I asked you before to quote the bit where it says that but you didn't, because you can't, because it doesn't.

 

Anyone with even a slight degree of pragmatic realism would acknowledge that being born a man and having male physicality would give an advantage over women in physical sports. Muscle mass reducing because of hormonal treatment is one thing, but there are some things that cannot be undone.

[MAC33]

https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-04-26-staff-members-are-quitting-their-jobs-national-health-service-rampant-transgender-experimentation.html

[Branyy]

14 hours ago, Cyclone said:

Did you read the evidence already provided that transgender (female from male) athletes show no statistical advantage in performance?

Which link was it? Sorry, I'm already a bit lost in this thread but I'd like to read that.

[Cyclone]

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/scientist-racing-discover-how-gender-transitions-alter-athletic-performance-including

 

I think it was this link, back on page 135.

 

Quote

 

Many people expect other physical advantages to linger, too. Men generally have blood with higher oxygen-carrying capacity because testosterone stimulates bone marrow to produce more red blood cells, says Siddhartha Angadi, a cardiovascular physiologist at Arizona State University in Phoenix. Male bodies are also generally leaner, and carry less body fat—"an obvious benefit when it comes to athletic performance," Angadi says.

Some people therefore insist that transgender women and many intersex athletes competing in women's events will always have an unfair edge.

 

Some people on this forum in fact.

 

This is the bit that WiseOwl won't accept

Quote

 

In Harper's study, titled simply "Race Times for Transgender Athletes" and published in 2015 in the little-known Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities, she showed that all but one person ran substantially slower after transitioning.

Harper also calculated each subject's age grade, a common metric in track and field and distance running that reflects an athlete's performance compared with the fastest known time by someone of the same age and sex. Harper showed that the athletes' age grades before and after hormone therapy remained nearly the same. That is, the women were as competitive with their age- and sex-matched peers as they had been when competing against men. They weren't, in other words, likely to dominate women's races. "No one had previously looked at actual performance of transgender athletes pre- and posttransition," Vilain says.

 

Quote

Harper has since shown similar results for a transgender rower, a cyclist, and a sprinter. Together, the findings make a case that previous exposure to male levels of testosterone does not confer an enduring athletic advantage.

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Cyclone

[Doubtful]

Can I ask,  if previous gender has no affect on performance of post trans men and women why do so few trans men, if any, compete and do well against natural born men.

Pro trans men in sports doing well are like rocking horse ****.

Practically any man from the top 700 on the pro tennis circuit could transition and thrash Serena Williams,  the best female tennis player in the world.

[Cyclone]

I'd guess because there are relatively speaking very very few transitioned men, and most of them don't have any particular sporting prowess.

If you're an average female who transitions to being male, it's not going to suddenly propel you into professional sports is it.

 

There are possibly also barriers to them competing, like here

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/25/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-texas-girls-title

 

• Quote

  Beggs wants to fight boys but state insists on birth certificate rule

  He is barred from competing as a male, so to make a point he competes as a female and wins...  Hardly surprising given the large differences in strength that testosterone provides.

[Yeah but]

Wouldn't chemically altering your physicality be prohibited in competitive sport?