Hillsborough Inquest Verdicts Returned

[mikem8634 10]

They have been asked to weigh all the evidence together, and been asked whether fan behaviour contributed to the deaths. They have decided that fan behaviour didn't contribute to the deaths. It is not irrational for the jury to decide that while acknowledging that some fans had no tickets. The presence of A does not necessarily mean that A caused B. That's how logic works.

 

Very well put.

 

If logical and epistemological principles were applied to this thread it would certainly make for a different read.

[mikem8634 10]

This is my view on what happened based on my experience of the Leppings Lane end when the club I support played there in the late 80s, not long before the disaster. This is based on the condition of the ground and the policing.

 

We numbered approx 2,000 and about 1,500 of us went onto the terrace. It was an unusually large following for a midweek cup game and my belief is the police were caught out by the numbers. We arrived in dribs and drabs really, no big rush but on going through the turnstiles the obvious route forward was through the tunnel in the centre of the stand. It felt uncomfortable and claustrophobic even going in. The police chose to funnel us into just one pen in the terrace to the right of the goal as we looked at the pitch. As kick-off approached it was uncomfortable in there and it felt weird that given all the space we were all packed into one pen. The police and stewards ignored requests to open the next pen. The terracing was in reasonable shape but the barriers and fencing not so great, and very over-bearing. It was like a cage and the only one I was in around that time that was as claustrophobically bad was at Belle Vue at Doncaster - anybody who was in that one at the time will know what I mean.

 

The game was pretty uneventful but the most scary bit was the end. The obvious route back out was from the back of the pen through the tunnel. It was very congested trying to get into the tunnel and the tunnel itself became rammed with people moving quite slowly and kind of accidentally pushing into the back of others, kind of concertinaing into each other. I remember thinking at the time that if somebody tripped then people were almost certainly going to die.

 

This was with a much smaller away following than Liverpool. And I honestly felt that night that somebody dying was just one stumble away in that tunnel.

 

The ground was badly designed especially the tunnel, the condition of the pens was not great, there was no control over how many people went into a pen, no intelligent thought put into managing the fans.

 

I wasn't surprised when people died in those pens a couple of years later to be honest. The only surprise was how many. Just my humble opinion.

 

Sad to hear, that sounds awful.

[The Manager 12]

Changing subject a little , id like more credit for the Nurses /Doctors at the Hospitals that sad day and those that got called in , also the PPL Who opened there homes up for fans that lived near the pitch , made them drinks . and helped where they could . Massive respect to them all . ,

[I1L2T3 10]

I think all the nonsense about ticket-less and drunken fans causing trouble can be dis-proven and the blame pinned firmly on crowd mismanagement can be done with a single image. It's on this page:

 

https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/hillsborough-ticketlessness-was-not-a-factor-and-this-is-how-we-know/

 

It proves beyond doubt that the police were 100% to blame. There is no doubt - it doesn't matter whether there were drunk fans (half of us were like that at every game in them days) or fans without tickets (even though there weren't that many) the fact is the police allowed the central pens on the terrace to become dangerously overcrowded. There is no doubt whatsoever. The pictures don't lie.

[Meds1516 10]

No matter what this jury has decided, I still firmly believe the mindless fans who turned up without tickets caused the problem, it's sad that people died but Liverpool people always want to blame someone else.

 

ridiculous people died here so what a crazy comment and i don't think liverpool wanted to blame anyone they re probably upset like anyone would be

police make mistakes too as we all do

[mikem8634 10]

Changing subject a little , id like more credit for the Nurses /Doctors at the Hospitals that sad day and those that got called in , also the PPL Who opened there homes up for fans that lived near the pitch , made them drinks . and helped where they could . Massive respect to them all . ,

 

Quite right, I've said before that Sheffield has its fair share of heroes whose actions that day should never be forgotten.

[yellowperil 10]

The assumption that your personal experience can be extrapolated into a significant cause of the tragedy.

 

The assumption that your personal experience weighs more than the verdict.

 

The assumption that your personal experience entitles you to claim that believing things without good reason (evidence) is a good idea for anyone, at any time, ever.

 

Oh no, imagine a world where people only believed what they had experienced and knew to be true, only believed what they saw with there own eyes and didnt have a report or the opinions of someone else wrapped up as "evidence" to tell them that they are in fact blind and know nothing.

Where would the world be.?

 

You live it your way and ill live it mine.

You are aware by the way that some people in life have their own agendas though arent you before you go forward? And that even eloquent words can be lies? And that statistics can be manipulated in many different ways.

 

You have the best wishes from me on your chosen path.

 

Im not closed to being educated and i am wrong sometimes, i just dont need a report to tell me that.

Edited April 27, 2016 by yellowperil

[monkeygirl 10]

i used to know someone who lived v close to leppings lane. he opened his home up to people afterwards. i don't know what happened or what he saw but he ended up in middlewood and was never the same after that day. no one cares about the likes of him.

 

i can't watch the news at the moment. feels like all of sheffield is being made out to be scum. when in fact most were caught up in a tragedy and some, higher up, used their powers to cover up and make matters worse. but it feels like all sheffield and even south yorkshire is a dirty word. well, i love this city still :-(

[A.B.Yaffle 24]

I think some people are conditioned to believe what they read in the Sun - they punch downwards and blame the victim - that's all they do.

 

I haven't seen anyone blaming any of the victims.

[Shef1985 10]

You mean like people being more willing to believe a report or juries descision or conclusion rather than being strong enough to stand up and say " hold on a minute,that doesnt seem quite right"?

 

How dare people question " the truth" they have been given eh.

Where would we be if people all did that.

 

A very eloquently and well writren put down/insult you used there by the way though. Well done.

Of course all those who dont agree with you are of the same "personality type" who must stick together for fear of being educated by you.

The same could be said converseley though.

 

From all available evidence presented at Taylor, HIP and the inquest I have reached the conclusion that LFC fans were not to blame for the crush. If you are sat in a dark corner of Sheffield with evidence that would give a contrary narrative then I might change my mind. But I ask you, why haven't you presented that evidence before? Why haven't you stood up in court and faced cross examination? That is a genuine question. If you don't like the verdict but kept quiet it is your fault isn't it? So why complain about the verdict when all the jury did was reach a verdict based on the evidence presented to them.

 

RIP the 96

 

Goodnight.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Shef1985

[hackey lad 3,991]

for gods sake close this thread , its all one side or the other and nothing is being resolved . we all have opinions and we will stand by them but this is going nowhere

[mikem8634 10]

i used to know someone who lived v close to leppings lane. he opened his home up to people afterwards. i don't know what happened or what he saw but he ended up in middlewood and was never the same after that day. no one cares about the likes of him.

 

i can't watch the news at the moment. feels like all of sheffield is being made out to be scum. when in fact most were caught up in a tragedy and some, higher up, used their powers to cover up and make matters worse. but it feels like all sheffield and even south yorkshire is a dirty word. well, i love this city still :-(

 

I certainly hope that is not the case.