Atheism the Belief

[Cyclone 10]

If I don't believe your dog is sat next to you, then I AM stating that I believe the opposite, that I believe it is NOT sat next to you.

 

Unlike if I say I don't know.

[RootsBooster 24]

If I don't believe your dog is sat next to you, then I AM stating that I believe the opposite, that I believe it is NOT sat next to you.

 

Unlike if I say I don't know.

 

The question isn't about what you know, the question is asking if you have a specific belief, that my dog is sat next to me.

 

The simplest way I can put it is that NOT having belief 1 does not mean that you HAVE to have belief 2. The logic is laid out plainly in the blue questions above.

 

I'll have another go, because I'm sure you do understand how logic works...

 

A= Belief that dog is sat next to me

B= Belief that dog is not sat next to me

C= Neither belief (absence of either belief)

 

If A = false then either B = true or C= true

If A = true then B=false and C= false

 

What you're saying is;

If A = false then B = true

 

so where does that leave C?

Edited September 30, 2015 by RootsBooster

[leviathan13 350]

RootsBooster - Your replies were lengthy, so didn't want to quote them and make the thread overly long

 

In your dog question, surely the atheist stance would be that your dog doesn't actually exist, no matter how you ask the question about whether it's sat with you or not.

 

For example: a christian asks the loaded question of 'Do you think God is good or evil'?

 

Someone from another religion might suggest evil because their god is good etc.

 

But an atheist would not be able to give one of those two answers because they don't believe that any god exists at all, thus offering a third answer. They might answer that IF there was a god, it might be good or evil, but because they have a complete lack of belief that there is one, they cannot give either answer that the christian is trying to lead to.

 

Before the ideas of gods and religion, atheism would not have existed because there was nothing to not have a belief in. So, for me to have a 'belief' in where your dog is sat, you would first need to prove that your dog existed. In this case, I would be agnostic about whether you have a dog or not because there is a chance you may and a chance you may not have one - but I know dogs exist so either is possible to believe. But I cannot have a 'belief' in where it's sat because I don't know that you actually have one in the first place.

[Cyclone 10]

I think you're missing the point he's trying to make (although I don't agree with his point).

 

---------- Post added 30-09-2015 at 13:11 ----------

 

The question isn't about what you know, the question is asking if you have a specific belief, that my dog is sat next to me.

Why are you desperate to avoid the "I don't know" answer? It's equivalent to lacking belief, but also means I'm not stating that I believe otherwise.

It's what you think atheism means.

If I say I don't believe, then I MUST believe that the dog is elsewhere, because it can't be nowhere.

 

If I believe that the dog is not with you, then I MUST believe that the dog is elsewhere.

If I don't know, then you could argue that I don't believe either position, but that's semantic games, in reality I've refused to form an opinion and don't disbelieve either position either.

[RootsBooster 24]

RootsBooster - Your replies were lengthy, so didn't want to quote them and make the thread overly long

 

In your dog question, surely the atheist stance would be that your dog doesn't actually exist, no matter how you ask the question about whether it's sat with you or not.

 

For example: a christian asks the loaded question of 'Do you think God is good or evil'?

 

Someone from another religion might suggest evil because their god is good etc.

 

But an atheist would not be able to give one of those two answers because they don't believe that any god exists at all, thus offering a third answer. They might answer that IF there was a god, it might be good or evil, but because they have a complete lack of belief that there is one, they cannot give either answer that the christian is trying to lead to.

 

Before the ideas of gods and religion, atheism would not have existed because there was nothing to not have a belief in. So, for me to have a 'belief' in where your dog is sat, you would first need to prove that your dog existed. In this case, I would be agnostic about whether you have a dog or not because there is a chance you may and a chance you may not have one - but I know dogs exist so either is possible to believe. But I cannot have a 'belief' in where it's sat because I don't know that you actually have one in the first place.

You're trying to liken the questions, the only part that is comparable or relevant is "Do you believe..."

If you want to change the rest of that question to "...that I have a dog?" then that's fine, it makes no difference.

 

---------- Post added 30-09-2015 at 13:23 ----------

 

Why are you desperate to avoid the "I don't know" answer? It's equivalent to lacking belief, but also means I'm not stating that I believe otherwise.

It's what you think atheism means.

I'm not desperate to avoid "I don't know". You've introduce it and therefore mixing knowledge and belief, which are not synonymous. The question isn't asking what you know, it's asking if you have a specific belief.

I'm guessing what you really mean is "I don't have either belief" is that correct?

 

If I say I don't believe, then I MUST believe that the dog is elsewhere, because it can't be nowhere.

If I believe that the dog is not with you, then I MUST believe that the dog is elsewhere.

Why must you believe the dog is elsewhere? You don't even know if I have a dog!

 

If I don't know, then you could argue that I don't believe either position, but that's semantic games, in reality I've refused to form an opinion and don't disbelieve either position either.

...again, you're trying to bring knowledge (or absence of) into a question of belief. That doesn't work.

 

Would you mind answering my question about the simple logic statement?

 

 

A= Belief that dog is sat next to me

B= Belief that dog is not sat next to me

C= Neither belief (absence of either belief)

 

If A = false then either B = true or C= true

If A = true then B=false and C= false

 

What you're saying is;

If A = false then B = true

 

so where does that leave C?

Edited September 30, 2015 by RootsBooster

[Rob_1 10]

I'm an atheist and have been for many years. However, I also realise that you cannot prove god (whichever one of the thousands that are worshipped) doesn't exist and so I'll stick to the scientific answer, which is there probably isn't a god.

 

Science fascinates me, and there is so much wonder in the universe and so much we keep discovering that I'm unsure why anyone needs to believe in some kind of all-powerful being.

 

The thing is, you can't really argue with religious people. They'll say that evolution and theories such as the Big Bang are full of holes, yet conveniently ignore the fact that their belief is based solely on faith without a single shred of evidence.

 

They'll say that the chances of life just appearing are infinitesimal and there had to be a creator, but ignore the irony that the chances of said all-powerful creator appearing are, by comparison, zero.

 

Religion belongs in the dark ages. Nobody believes that fairies and vampires exist, nobody believes the sun is a god anymore. (At least those who worshipped the sun could actually see it).

 

It baffles me how otherwise intelligent people can believe in it - I can only assume it's often because it gives comfort when thinking of lost love ones or when thinking of their own deaths. I'll quite openly say that I'm afraid to die (though it's not something I think about much anyway) because I know when I'm dead, that's it. There's nothing else.

[plantas_Vzla 10]

As I understand it, atheism has nothing to do with what this post first described. People can be scientists and religious at the same time. People can believe in the big bang theory, and the evolution of the species and also believe in the old book. Atheism is just also a believe system. They just don't believe in God. I do not understand them really. I prefer to refer myself as an agnostic believer.

[RootsBooster 24]

As I understand it, atheism has nothing to do with what this post first described. People can be scientists and religious at the same time. People can believe in the big bang theory, and the evolution of the species and also believe in the old book. Atheism is just also a believe system. They just don't believe in God. I do not understand them really. I prefer to refer myself as an agnostic believer.

 

Could you give a brief explanation of this belief system?

Edited September 30, 2015 by RootsBooster

[leviathan13 350]

Dogs or gods, it all comes down to:

 

Dog is sat with you = Christians (for example)

Dog is not sat with you = other religions (for example)

Not sure = agnostic

Dog doesn't exist = atheist

 

Atheist 'believe' that God doesn't exist, thus taking away the need for a belief system.

 

It's a bit like Douglas Adams' argument for why God does/doesn't exist in HHGTTG...

[RootsBooster 24]

Dogs or gods, it all comes down to:

 

Dog is sat with you = Christians (for example)

Dog is not sat with you = other religions (for example)

Not sure = agnostic

Dog doesn't exist = atheist

 

Atheist 'believe' that God doesn't exist, thus taking away the need for a belief system.

 

It's a bit like Douglas Adams' argument for why God does/doesn't exist in HHGTTG...

 

Again, you're trying to use it as a comparable belief, it doesn't matter what the belief is, whether it's;

 

-belief that X exists

-belief that X doesn't exist

-belief that Y is next to me

-belief that Y is not next to me

-belief that Z is blue

-belief that Z is yellow

-belief that Z is not red

-belief that A can run faster than B

-etc

 

If the question begins with "Do you believe..." coupled with anything else, the belief has a binary state - either the belief is present or the belief is absent.

 

What makes you think that an atheist has to believe that gods don't exist?

[plantas_Vzla 10]

the difference between belief and knowing fades as what you think you know grows. certainty seems so blurry these days.

[RootsBooster 24]

the difference between belief and knowing fades as what you think you know grows. certainty seems so blurry these days.

 

Whatchoo talkinbout?