Hate and violence towards immigrants is wrong but understandable

[Mecky]

Here'e one which accurately sums up the size of the UKIP argument.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10392257/Thousands-of-Britons-claim-dole-in-Germany.html

[Bonzo77]

Here'e one which accurately sums up the size of the UKIP argument.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10392257/Thousands-of-Britons-claim-dole-in-Germany.html

 

So we export them as well as import them? Soddin immigrants

[Badlittlepup]

Violence and hatred isn't understandable because individual people are not to blame for it, it's the governments fault not theirs.

 

I am very much against the importation of cheap labour and think that rather than British people not wanting to work a lot of the time they simply can't afford to come off benefits because they can't afford their rent and bills and get more money on the dole than they would working.

 

Personally I'm in favour of a points based system like Australia so we have people coming to fill gaps in the labour market rather than just providing cheap unskilled or semi skilled labour. We should be investing in our young people more so these gaps are minimal rather than bringing in pre-trained people. We should also be ensuring that people who come in to do particular jobs like science, medicine etc are capable of doing the job, especially that they can speak English to a good degree.

 

But you should blame the system and never individuals just for being here, it's not their fault the government's policy is wrong.

 

---------- Post added 11-11-2014 at 22:14 ----------

 

Here'e one which accurately sums up the size of the UKIP argument.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10392257/Thousands-of-Britons-claim-dole-in-Germany.html

 

Um, Germany has just sought a ruling in the European Courts to restrict benefits tourism....

[cardoor]

Hate and violence towards immigrants is wrong but understandable.

 

"They are coming here taking our jobs"

 

"They are coming here taking our benefits"

 

"They are taking our housing"

 

"They are undercutting our wages"

 

These sayings are often said and repeated. They are to a degree true. Immigrants do take jobs, claim benefits, occupy artificially scarce housing and bring down wages.

 

They don't do this because they want to lower the living standards of the people in the country they emigrate to, they do it to better themselves, or more often just to sustain themselves.

 

They can be easily scapegoated and the divide in the working class that results, allows for the problems to remain instead of be addressed.

 

We see groups form to protest against immigration, because of the resulting decline in living standards faced by the host natives in the lower orders, the exploited in the host country face additional pressures in life, there is increased competition for the 'scraps'; the poorly paid jobs, the lowest quality housing, meagre benefits and forms of charity available to help the poor.

 

There is also a formation of counter protest groups. Instead of attempting to address the concerns of those in the host country that have resulted, the left wing (sic) is manipulated into opposing outright the groups protesting, and many of the very valid concerns are ignored.

 

People need to understand that many of the concerns people have are valid, and that people can be easily manipulated into hate, and for that hate to lead to violence. Such hate and violence is wrong, but it is understandable.

 

To tackle it, the hate and violence shouldn't be opposed for the sake of it. The reasons why it exist remain, and it won't go away unless the underlying causes are tackled.

 

Low wages and poor working conditions due to an abundance of unorganised people unable to organise and enforce rights and demand better rights and conditions need to be tackled.

 

If the likes of the EDL and UAF got together and started protesting together against the living & working conditions of the poorest, things would have to change for the better.

 

When groups like the EDL and UAF are busy protesting against each other, the poor living & working conditions flourish.

 

When the unemployed are forced to compete for the most insecure and poorly paid labour, and the ranks of the unemployed include natives and immigrants, the best way to ensure the unemployed do not organise and force a change which would better themselves, is to make sure they are fighting among each other.

 

A lot of the hate and violence is understandable. But it won't achieve anything.

 

To stop it, people need to acknowledge that it is understandable.

 

Then instead of opposing it for the sake of it, they need to tackle the underlying concerns and educate and organise people to tackle the problems which allow for immigrants and others to be easily scapegoated.

 

Great post, the new so called trendy left have also exacerbated hatred by nearly always demonising white working classes and defending those who are ethnic.

 

I also think lots of people find it hard to hate a 'system' they don't fully understand. it's very difficult to hate a non physical 'system' Humans prefer another physical presence to vent their frustrations at, in this case it's the immigrants.

[fishy_taste]

Why don't I?

 

The public sector is government funded. The private sector isn't.

 

The massive cutbacks are being made for 1 of 2 reasons. The government is short on money, or they're intent on breaking up the public sector and privatising it, which will lead to more profits for big businesses.

 

And where do the funds come from that the government use to fund the public sector?

 

Hint - income tax (and other tax revenue levied on individuals and businesses).

 

This forms the 'economy'. The economy can be doing well and cutback could still be required (to the public sector) because the public sector is almost exclusively funded by taxation (individual and corporate), as well as borrowed money.

 

Thanks to Blair and Brown, who basically borrowed money on the gamble that the economy would pay for it all in the long run - and now the UK has and has had one of the largest national debts it's ever had.

 

The Govt is responsible for the nations finances, which unfortunately includes public sector pay.

 

In much the same way as if you borrowed heavily on a credit card or took out a big loan, you would be expected to pay it back. That would require you to make cut backs in your own spending; it is no different to what the UK govt is having to do (oh, and if Ed Sillit**t gets voted in he has already said the austerity measures would have to continue).

 

Of course, another way to boost the govt finances would be to pay more in income tax - but that would be political suicide.

 

Trouble is, society wants the best services etc., but doesn't want to have to pay any more for it. And the UK cannot afford to keep borrowing and increasing the deficit - look at where Greece is now - handed over control of their finances to Germany and the EU, who decide how deep and how quick to make the cutbacks.

 

---------- Post added 12-11-2014 at 15:14 ----------

 

But some immigration is a problem, so why would people that know this change their stance and focus on what you think are the real issues. The real issues are that high levels of immigration are very difficult to plan for regarding public services and housing, it also helps to keeps wage low and unemployment higher than it should be, it increases congestion on our roads and causes social problems in our communities. When people put their differences aside and focus on this problem things will be better and immigrants will live happily alongside UK residents.

 

One of the biggest problems that I see from the 'immigration' debate is that, in legal terms, anyone coming to the UK from any EU member state is not an immigrant. Under the rules of EU membership and freedom of movement, they are as entitled to come to the UK as we are (and many UK nationals do) go to any other EU member country.

 

If we wish to curb or (as many seem to want it) stop it completely, the issue is not about immigration - it is about remaining part of the EU.

 

Any national coming to the UK from beyond the EU is subject to strict rules on immigration and rigid checks. They have to prove various requirements and meet certain conditions and criteria or they are not accepted (the issue of asylum, in a legal sense, is something different and further clouds the water).

 

Net migration figures (those of immigrants being allowed in to the UK versus those leaving the UK have, over the years, shown a virtual equilibrium - as many are granted immigration status as those who depart - oh, and those are figures of people leaving the UK and going beyond the EU versus those coming from outside the EU).

 

There will always be those who abuse the system and know how to play it to their advantage (though, sadly, this abuse is not exclusive to non-UK nationals) and the media, as well as Farage and his lemmings, will always focus on them and make the issue out to be an epidemic, rather than a few bad apples.

 

The vast majority of people who come to the UK do so to work, to make a contribution to our society, both financally, culturally and bringing skills and experience.

 

Those who 'take our jobs' generally take the low paid, rubbish jobs that no self-respecting, UK citizen out of work would ever dream of taking, until a Polish person takes the job, then suddenly they (the UK national) would have done the job, only 'those bloody immigrants our jobs'!

 

My biggest fear is that this whole debate is being driven by xenophobia and racists in suits.

[Mister M]

Violence and hatred isn't understandable because individual people are not to blame for it, it's the governments fault not theirs.

 

I am very much against the importation of cheap labour and think that rather than British people not wanting to work a lot of the time they simply can't afford to come off benefits because they can't afford their rent and bills and get more money on the dole than they would working.

 

Personally I'm in favour of a points based system like Australia so we have people coming to fill gaps in the labour market rather than just providing cheap unskilled or semi skilled labour. We should be investing in our young people more so these gaps are minimal rather than bringing in pre-trained people. We should also be ensuring that people who come in to do particular jobs like science, medicine etc are capable of doing the job, especially that they can speak English to a good degree.

 

But you should blame the system and never individuals just for being here, it's not their fault the government's policy is wrong.

 

---------- Post added 11-11-2014 at 22:14 ----------

 

 

Um, Germany has just sought a ruling in the European Courts to restrict benefits tourism....

 

 

Good point - disabled hate crime is also on the increase. And whilst I think that those who committ these horrid crimes need to take responsibility for what they've the done - the nastiness that's in the newspapers about scroungers, and people not really being disabled but living the life of luxury, creates a climate in which the disabled are viewed as sub human scum by some people.

[andil]

 

Net migration figures (those of immigrants being allowed in to the UK versus those leaving the UK have, over the years, shown a virtual equilibrium - as many are granted immigration status as those who depart - oh, and those are figures of people leaving the UK and going beyond the EU versus those coming from outside the EU).

 

 

No it doesn't, it shows a net migration figure of between 100,000 and 280,000 each year for the past 25 years.

[Frederick1]

No it doesn't, it shows a net migration figure of between 100,000 and 280,000 each year for the past 25 years.

 

Latest figures for March this year show emigration at 316000 whilst immigration stands at 560000. That's for the first three months of this year!

[chem1st]

Again - you are aware that the people you have listed are not by any stretch all of the working and middle classes......

 

It's ok to be annoyed. It's ok to be peeved.

 

It's not ok to invoke hyperbole and inflate numbers to big up an argument. That just makes you look foolish.

 

You said, 'everyone', he needs only provide example of one person, it's not him who looks foolish. Besides, current real term wage declines are historically significant and will be for centuries.