Hillsborough document release

[barnie41]

There is no doubt of that, but a FULL enquiry needs to understand why so many folk were outside the ground with only minutes to go before kick off. Or does the enquiry only really look at what happened with respect to the Police/ stewards AT the ground.

It's either a full investigation or it isn't.

If it was a murder enquiry, would they only look at what happened at the time of the fatality or would they investigate everything that led up to the final act?

I am not defending the actions of SYP - far from it - but hope that the criminal and IPCC enquiries are going to look at the whole picture - and not just the actions of those in positions of authority or wearing green jackets/ blue uniforms.

[esoneulb]

Pedantry. Why concentrate on that bit, rather than on the much more significant point that Duckenfield lied about the behaviour of the Liverpool fans.

 

It's not a crime to be late to a football match. The responsibility here lies with the people whose job was to manage the crowds.

 

No it is not a crime to be late for a football match, it had been happening for many years, all without major incident.

 

What I and many others are saying is how can this inquest be credible if non of the large number of latecomers many without tickets will not be giving evidence?

[Daven]

Have the residents who lived on the streets around the ground been asked to give evidence in this 'full enquiry' I wonder.

[Mr Bloom]

Hillsborough held semi’s for years as did Villa Park, Old Trafford and others without any major incident. For all the previous Hillsborough semi’s (and big matches involving Wednesday) the allocation of tickets for the Leppings Lane end would have been the same as would the number of turnstiles. It has to be remembered in those days all ticket games were rare, the turnstiles dealt with cash so they generally were much slower than they would have been on that day.

It is rare if not unprecedented for the same teams to contest a semi-final but here we had a duplicate of the 1988 game which seemed to go off without any incident, to my mind if a new Ch Supt was going to take a match then it would be this one as they had a blue print.

The difference for the ’89 match was more than usual supporters turned up without tickets, maybe down to opening gates the previous year, for example if they let in 2,000 ticketless fans and each one told 5 friends it is easy to see why so many ticketless fans may have turned up.

The two main causes for the disaster are;

 

A) Thousands of fans without tickets arriving late without tickets

b) The police did not close the central pen prior to opening the gates

 

So we have an inquest to proportion blame therefore opening the way for compensation, my question is; are the following people going to give evidence, Landlords from local pubs, ticketless fans, fans with tickets who arrived late, and local residents?

 

You can't expect to write lies and for them not to go unchallenged. Every official investigation in to this myth has come back with the conclusion, based on the all the evidence available, that this was just that - a myth!

 

If you have some new evidence, that supports your statement, then please do share it.

 

---------- Post added 01-04-2015 at 18:38 ----------

 

That of course was the case at 2:45pm when the crush outside was occurring.

 

The Taylor report had a breakdown of all turnstiles at the Leppings Lane end and what their capacity was / persons per hour that could be admitted. In a perfect world they ALL could have got in in time for kick off, but that would have meant fans arriving as the turnstiles opened which of course many didn't.

 

As to why there were more fans arriving late in '89 as opposed to '88 - Taylor also reported the fact that in '89 it was quite a beautiful warm day, and as such it seemed more fans visited the local pubs before going in to the ground than they did the year before.

 

What time did the turnstiles open? According to this source - it was suggested that fans should aim to be in the ground for 2:45 - but people were already being pulled out up in to the stand then, weren't they?

 

https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.com/tag/hillsborough-disaster-hillsborough-lateness/

[esoneulb]

You can't expect to write lies and for them not to go unchallenged. Every official investigation in to this myth has come back with the conclusion, based on the all the evidence available, that this was just that - a myth!

 

If you have some new evidence, that supports your statement, then please do share it.

 

---------- Post added 01-04-2015 at 18:38 ----------

 

 

What time did the turnstiles open? According to this source - it was suggested that fans should aim to be in the ground for 2:45 - but people were already being pulled out up in to the stand then, weren't they?

 

https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.com/tag/hillsborough-disaster-hillsborough-lateness/

 

It is common knowledge in the football fraternity that fans used gain access to grounds without tickets, the Liverpool fans were famous for it. Kenny Dalglish made reference to this in his book, this is what was said at the inquest on 18th December 2014 -

 

Having quizzed Dalglish about what he had described in his autobiography as fans ‘bunking in’ to watch the 1986 FA Cup final against Everton at Wembley, John Beggs QC, representing some of the police officers involved, then drew the court’s attention to Home Office reports of ticket less and drunken Liverpool fans at the 1989 FA Cup final, the month after Hillsborough.

Did people bunk in?

 

‘I have no evidence of people bunking in at Wembley (in 1989),’ said Dalglish, who added that there was ‘a clamour’ across Merseyside to ‘show unity for those who had lost loved ones at Hillsborough’.

 

Heysel 1985- Liverpool fans drunk without tickets.

 

Athens 2007 - Liverpool fans 'UEFA spokesman William Gaillard said: "The incidents involving Liverpool fans have been well known to us before the trouble at the Champions League final which involved Liverpool fans last week.

"That was just the latest example. What other set of fans steal tickets from their fellow supporters or out of the hands of children?

Edited April 1, 2015 by esoneulb

[Mr Bloom]

It is common knowledge in the football fraternity that fans used gain access to grounds without tickets, the Liverpool fans were famous for it. Kenny Dalglish made reference to this in his book, this is what was said at the inquest on 18th December 2014 -

 

Having quizzed Dalglish about what he had described in his autobiography as fans ‘bunking in’ to watch the 1986 FA Cup final against Everton at Wembley, John Beggs QC, representing some of the police officers involved, then drew the court’s attention to Home Office reports of ticket less and drunken Liverpool fans at the 1989 FA Cup final, the month after Hillsborough.

Did people bunk in?

 

‘I have no evidence of people bunking in at Wembley (in 1989),’ said Dalglish, who added that there was ‘a clamour’ across Merseyside to ‘show unity for those who had lost loved ones at Hillsborough’.

 

Heysel 1985- Liverpool fans drunk without tickets.

 

Athens 2007 - Liverpool fans 'UEFA spokesman William Gaillard said: "The incidents involving Liverpool fans have been well known to us before the trouble at the Champions League final which involved Liverpool fans last week.

"That was just the latest example. What other set of fans steal tickets from their fellow supporters or out of the hands of children?

 

None of this supports your statement that, 'The difference for the ’89 match was more than usual supporters turned up without tickets',.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Mr Bloom

[Dannyno]

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdf

 

Taylor found no evidence to demonstrate that there was a ‘very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up’. He also dismissed the ‘slender evidence’ on which the ‘suggestion that fans without tickets conspired to arrive late and create such trouble as would force the police to admit them to the match’ was based.

 

Consistent with Lord Justice Taylor’s findings, the Panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans.

 

---------- Post added 02-04-2015 at 08:33 ----------

 

 

Heysel 1985- Liverpool fans drunk without tickets.

 

That's a strange way to describe that tragedy.

 

What actually happened is that a supposedly neutral zone on the terraces was filled mainly with expatriate Juventus fans. With the two groups closer than planned, confrontation and missile throwing built up leading to the disaster. Ticketlessness per se was not the real point.

[esoneulb]

So in summary they 'bunked' in for the 1986 final, they arrived in Athens with no tickets, but for some reason did not do it at Hillsborough....hmmm.