Hillsborough document release

[rossyrooney]

Don't confuse matters

 

Jefferey usually posts facts and points of law, but rather oddly expressed opinions without supporting evidence when he joined this thread

 

Can we return to the topic of this thread now guys?

 

Apologies.

[mikem8634]

Read it and it is very good at telling part of the story. There were drunk fans there, there were no police pushing people towards a fence, there were fans without tickets. Lets have some balance. I do not claim the police are blameless. but if the above FACTS had not been involved there would have been no tradgedy. That is a fact.

What happened after is a very different matter and one I do not claim to have knowledge of, but the root cause was NOT the police. If football fans (of any description or loyalty) could behave like normal people the police would not even have been needed at the match.

 

If you have a point of view as contentious and hurtful as this I think you have responsibility to provide evidence to back it up. My point of view is backed up by a comprehensive report drawn from nearly half a million documents.

 

Including a member of my family..................

 

You clearly have a vested emotional interest in this issue and my heart breaks for anyone caught in those pens. Lives were never the same. I genuinely believe, however, that you are misplacing the blame.

 

Independant reports can be as biased as a copper covering his tracks.

 

Why then, would the entire UK establishment who had been entrenched in opposition to the point of view in the HIP report suddenly, en masse, do an abrupt volt face and fall on their knees to apologise? Why would a flawed and biased report suddenly make everyone listen to the voices of 96 bereaved families who had been dismissed for 23 years? There is clear evidence of coppers covering their tracks. If you have any actual evidence (not point of view, opinion or hearsay) that the report is biased I would like to see it.

 

you just keep on with your ageda then, I will try and get some closure without it being constantly dragged up by the do gooder brigade.

 

I sincerely hope you and your family can get closure. I think the 96 families who can't have every right to bring it up until justice is served. Then, perhaps we can all sleep better and begin to consign this to history.

 

Well you just try telling that to my cousin who made it over the fence in order to watch his father crushed to death in front of his own eyes. He will tell you what we all know. The people doing all the pushing were Liverpool fans. NOBODY ELSE.. That is the bottom line. What the police did or did not do does not change that fact and anyone trying to blame them or just getting a kick from mud raking needs to remember that.

If you want to know why I have such a hatred of this whole stirring up of the past - well his last attempt on his life was on the day the report was released.

There are those who want this whole sad tradgedy put to sleep, but whilst those who have no cares for the victims and their families keep stirrrind things up they can not.

 

That is truly heartbreaking.

 

I am sorry but I cannot agree with your assertions relating to blame as many more who were in those pens see it completely differently and they are backed up by clear evidence. I too, and many others, want to see this whole sad tragedy put to sleep but letting a cover-up remain in place is not the way to do it.

 

In challenging your heartfelt and emotional point of view I feel as though I am intruding on your grief. Please understand that I only do so in order do defend thousands of others who remained consumed by their own, equally powerful grief, who have had it made so much worse by the spread of vicious lies that have no place in our society. They are people who have been accused of killing their own fathers, sons, brothers, sisters, cousins and friends for 23 years and even after undeniable proof to the contrary it still goes on.

Edited October 26, 2012 by mikem8634

[mikem8634]

well said busdriver 1, its time this sad event moved on ,it will never be forgotten,and now we have all the orgreave story been raked up over again what next, the football betting scandel of the 60s footballers, drugs busts of the sheffield clubs

 

I think it is up to the families as to what time we all move on. They have earned that with 23 years of dignity and determination in the face of every obstacle imaginable.

[Strix]

Apologies.

Thanks

Sorry, I'm not trying to barge you off this thread, and I hope you don't think so

 

It's just really frustrating when a thread such as this wanders away from having good links to valuable material, and a good exchange of opinions, into a more normal SF squabblefest that goes round and round in circles with the contributors becoming more and more heated

Edited October 25, 2012 by Strix
stray embedded code in quote

[mikem8634]

No, I'm not aggressive- just seeking to explain how the English Legal System works, to those who don't seem to know.

Anyone convicted of a criminal offence is guilty, by definition.

Anyone who's not convicted isn't.

See?

 

Yes, I get that obviously - I'm married to a solicitor. I am not asking for, nor do I need, legal advice. I am interested in how YOU would feel about their convictions. How would you look back on your attempts to defend them?

 

Hypothetically speaking, if a report came from nowhere that suddenly implicated all the Liverpool fans and was followed by criminal charges and then convictions I'd be compelled, due to reason, to totally re-evaluate my position and then be on here like a shot to correct any and all erroneous posts that appeared in my name.

 

I'm just curious how you would handle that happening to Patnick and Bettison? It's a fair question and I am led to believe you are a fair-minded man.

Edited October 25, 2012 by mikem8634

[rossyrooney]

Thanks

Sorry, I'm not trying to barge you off this thread, and I hope you don't think so

 

It's just really frustrating when a thread such as this wanders away from having good links to valuable material, and a good exchange of opinions, into a more normal SF squabblefest that goes round and round in circles with the contributors becoming more and more heated

 

You state my feelings more eloquently and factually than i can,please,carry on.

[Strix]

You state my feelings more eloquently and factually than i can,please,carry on.

That post means a lot to me - thank you

 

When the argument goes back and forth, I often wonder who else is reading, and what they are thinking, and how much they are absorbing

 

Occasionally we have a poster (on this thread and previous ones on the H'boro' topic) who asks genuine 'why this?' questions, as they genuinely don't know the whole picture, or were under the impression the tabloid headlines were gospel, but want to know more.

 

It is heartening to read a post which tells me it DOES make a difference when I go to the effort of contributing here

 

I've learned quite a bit reading this thread too

[mikem8634]

When I wrote my piece last night I did it because I had heard first hand accounts from officers there that were junior in service with no axe to grind with those that died... They said it was chaos pure and simple. To all those families that lost and those who were injured my heart goes out to you.

But .. My point is this the dead were killed because of Liverpool fans turning up late which compounded the other poor decisions made.. And this has been totally wiped out from the report. It was fact . They were too many at that gate pushing to get in. I'm sure you've seen the pictures .

Lets have the people if Liverpool face up to the facts that their loved ones died and injured due to a combination if all the facts. to deny this happened is just another cover up !

 

My personal view

Clarksoneqs

 

First of all, let me apologise if I was unnecessarily dismissive of your original post. I found some of your post very hurtful and insulting and assumed that was your intention. It may well not have been.

 

As I have said before, if you have an opinion that flies in the face of all available evidence then you have a responsibility to provide evidence to back it up.

 

Have you read the report?

Can you argue against it's evidence?

 

Do you have anything to refute all of this? -

 

15 April 1989

The circumstances

1.77 Consistent with the Operational Order, many spectators arriving in Sheffield on trains and coaches were escorted by the police from their point of arrival to the stadium. As they approached the stadium there was no filtering of the crowd and the bottleneck at the concourse in front of the turnstiles became tightly packed. With walls, fences or gates to the sides and front of this small area, the only relief was to move backwards. Many more fans arrived, oblivious to the mounting crush at the front, and the situation in the vicinity of the turnstiles soon became critical.

 

1.78 As kick-off time approached, the crush worsened, and men, women, children and police officers struggled to breathe. Mounted police officers were trapped in the crowd. In later testimonies police officers stated that the crowd grew ‘unruly’, ‘nasty’ and ‘violent’, but people caught in the crush gave a contrasting account. They felt there had been no attempt to manage the crowd, no filtering and no queuing.

 

1.79 The Police Control Box, the centre of the policing operation at the stadium, was positioned inside the ground, elevated above the Leppings Lane terrace, giving a commanding view of the pens below. At 2.30pm the bank of CCTV monitors in the box showed the build-up of fans in Leppings Lane and at the turnstiles.

 

1.80 As the crush became critical, C/Supt Duckenfield faced a serious dilemma. The senior officer outside the ground, Superintendent Roger Marshall, radioed that unless the large exit gates were opened to relieve the crush there would be serious injuries, possibly deaths. Hesitating, C/Supt Duckenfield gave the command to open the gates.

 

1.81 Gate C was adjacent to the turnstiles and once opened the crowd walked through into the inner concourse behind the Leppings Lane terrace and the North Stand. Fans recalled ‘hanging back’ to wait for the congestion to ease. When Gate C opened they walked onto the inner concourse and down the tunnel.

 

1.82 The tunnel was directly opposite Gate C and the sign above read: STANDING. The gates at the head of the tunnel were fastened back against the wall. Oblivious to the layout of the terrace, and unable to view the terrace from the tunnel entrance, more than 2,000 fans descended into the already packed central pens.

 

1.83 When they arrived at the bottom of the tunnel the central fence forced them left into pen 4 or right into pen 3. There were no stewards at either end of the tunnel. The central pens soon held twice their capacity. There was no respite to the sides or front and the sheer volume ofpeople prevented escape back up the tunnel.

 

1.84 As the teams ran onto the pitch for the 3pm kick-off, the crowd cheered but already in the central pens people were screaming. Others fell silent, already unconscious. Survivors described being gradually compressed, unable to move, their heads ‘locked between arms and shoulders ... faces gasping in panic’. They were aware that people were dying and they were helpless to save themselves.

 

1.85 In pen 3 the pressure became so severe that the faces of fans at the front were pressed into the perimeter fencing, distorted by the mesh. As fans lost consciousness some slipped to the ground under the feet of others unable to move. Survivors recall the gradual compression on their chests preventing them from breathing.

 

1.86 Fans screamed at the police on the perimeter track to open the small gate in each pen onto the pitch, ‘but they just seemed transfixed. They did nothing’. As fans tried to climb the overhanging perimeter fence, officers on the track pushed them back into the crowd.

 

1.87 In the Police Control Box, C/Supt Duckenfield and his colleagues had a clear view of the packed central pens and the underpopulated side pens. Having opened the exit gate, he had failed to order the closure of the tunnel. He stated later that he had confidence that officers ‘were patrolling the concourse area’ and acting ‘on their own initiative ... would have taken some action in the tunnel’.

 

1.88 From the Police Control Box he watched fans trying to climb from the pens. Subsequently he reflected that it did not occur to him that they were trying to escape a crush. Then he saw a perimeter gate open, apparently without authority. ‘My perception is [sic] … it was a pitch invasion’. 1.89 This was the message transmitted to officers throughout the stadium as they rushed to the Leppings Lane perimeter track. They assumed they were dealing with crowd disorder and a pitch invasion rather than severe crushing. Initially, they responded accordingly.

 

 

 

Any response to this -

 

Originally Posted by mikem8634

Honestly, how many times do you have to hear it to think it might at least be worth glancing at the evidence?

 

Independent Police Complaints Commission Statement

 

In response to Norman Bettison’s claim that Liverpool fans made policing Hillsborough ‘more difficult than it needed to be’

 

60. In relation to the complaints about his statement on 13 September 2012, I have read his statement, and his “updated comment” issued the following day. It does not seem to me that this is a matter requiring investigation – there is no doubt that he made the first statement, which many people regarded as highly offensive, and which flew in the face of the report’s definitive findings, and that he attempted to explain it with his second statement.

 

61. It was unwise of Sir Norman Bettison to issue a press statement attempting to exonerate himself immediately after publication of the report. It was also insensitive and inappropriate to make reference to fans’ behaviour at all – bearing in mind that publication of the report represented a vindication for the fans that their behaviour was not a factor.

 

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr_121012.aspx

 

 

Prime Minister’s statement to the House of Commons

 

A narrative about hooliganism on that day was created which led many in the country to accept that it was somehow a grey area.

Today's report is black and white.

The Liverpool fans "were not the cause of the disaster".

 

The Panel has quite simply found "no evidence" in support of allegations of "exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans", "no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium" and "no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying."

11.01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6c3gvAoqnM

 

And that alcohol consumption was "unremarkable and not exceptional for a social or leisure occasion".

 

05.35 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6c3gvAoqnM

 

 

The Hillsborough Independent Panel Report

 

The disclosed documents show that multiple factors were responsible for the deaths of the 96 victims of the Hillsborough tragedy and that the fans were not the cause of the disaster.

 

In the days after the disaster the media, particularly the press, published allegations and counter-allegations apportioning blame. This came to a head on 19 April when a number of newspapers, The Sun being the most prominent, reported serious allegations about the behaviour of Liverpool fans before and during the unfolding tragedy.

 

The documents disclosed to the Panel show that the origin of these serious allegations was a local Sheffield press agency informed by several SYP officers, an SYP Police Federation spokeperson and a local MP.

 

They also demonstrate how the SYP Police Federation, supported informally by the SYP Chief Constable, sought to develop and publicise a version of events that focused on several police officers' allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence among a large number of Liverpool fans. This extended beyond the media to Parliament.

 

Yet, from the mass of documents, television and CCTV coverage disclosed to the Panel there is no evidence to support these allegations other than a few isolated examples of aggressive or verbally abusive behaviour clearly reflecting frustration and desperation.

 

150. Lord Justice Taylor's Interim Report condemned the evidence and testimony of senior police officers and rejected as exaggerated the allegations made against Liverpool fans. He stated categorically that fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster.

 

153. Consistent with Lord Justice Taylor's findings, the Panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans. There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry and no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying. Documents show that fans became frustrated by the inadequate response to the unfolding tragedy. The vast majority of fans on the pitch assisted in rescuing and evacuating the injured and the dead.

 

http://hillsborough.independent.gov....mmary/page-14/

 

 

Even Bettison

 

“Critical police chief admits the fans were not to blame”

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/u...cle3539383.ece

 

Plus all the apologies from people who would never have even considered it had they not been forced by the evidence -

 

The report prompted immediate apologies from Prime Minister David Cameron, the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police David Crompton, Football Association Chairman David Bernstein, James Murdoch and Kelvin MacKenzie, then-editor of The Sun, for their organisations' respective roles

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19570810

 

Had the HIP report proved that fans were to blame I'd have been heartbroken but if the evidence was overwhelming I would have been compelled, by reason, to accept it. If statements are to be made that still denigrate the fans then should they not be backed up with evidence?

 

 

How about taking a look at this that Strix originally posted and has already asked you to consider? It's even more compelling

 

Let me help out here:

http://hillsborough.independent.gov....a/VID0002.html

around the 8 min mark onwards for those of you who are impatient

 

It's interesting to watch those who are climbing the outer fences. They're not entering the ground, they're looking about, many of them searching (presumably for lost friends and family), and some clearly trying to just see inside the turnstiles to see what the hold up is, as well as some just relieved to be out of the bedlam below

 

I haven't had time to watch it all yet. I'll do so later

 

The fans 'running' through gate C are pushed through by the sheer weight of the crowd behind them, but mostly stop and regroup with friends before continuing without running

Watch the footage in full and listen to the commentary. It will please a certain type of poster as you get to see one or two Liverpool fans being angry. What you also get is an explanation of what actually happened, in context. So you see the chaos of the crush, you see some fans running through a gate, you see some fans climbing over a wall - all things that have been used to paint a negative picture - but you also find out WHY.

Edited October 25, 2012 by mikem8634

[mikem8634]

That post means a lot to me - thank you

 

When the argument goes back and forth, I often wonder who else is reading, and what they are thinking, and how much they are absorbing

 

Occasionally we have a poster (on this thread and previous ones on the H'boro' topic) who asks genuine 'why this?' questions, as they genuinely don't know the whole picture, or were under the impression the tabloid headlines were gospel, but want to know more.

 

It is heartening to read a post which tells me it DOES make a difference when I go to the effort of contributing here

 

I've learned quite a bit reading this thread too

 

 

Yes you're right Strix, and I can get it wrong sometimes and assume that those questions are intended to bait or troll or bring further pain. I apologise for the times I get it wrong and will strive to improve that aspect of my posting.

[Strix]

Yes you're right Strix, and I can get it wrong sometimes and assume that those questions are intended to bait or troll or bring further pain. I apologise for the times I get it wrong and will strive to improve that aspect of my posting.

It doesn't matter if the poster you are responding to IS a known SF troll mike - you have no idea who else is reading this thread, or if google has brought somebody in here who has never heard of SF. If you respond to a troll badly or don't treat his points seriously, the wider audience can adopt the negative view in response to YOUR post

 

It is so easy to forget this in the cut and thrust of such an emotive thread, but we MUST remember it, for the sake of EVERYBODY there that day, and everybody who even KNOWS somebody there that day

 

One other group of people I feel for are the families of those who created the smokescreen. Their world may be about to go pearshaped, for reasons beyond THEIR control