Hillsborough document release

[booperstorr 10]

Just a couple of points from your last reply re Bettison and Leon Brittain 1) You infer that the 2 D/c's investigating the Johnson Mathey complaint etc were no friends of Bettison and also the complaint was not worth pursuing... one of the D/C's who still has a record in his pocket book of the event says to this day everyone knew the enquiry would never see the light of day!! just as Johnson Mathey claimed!! 2) When I asked John Mann (MP) why no action had been been taken against Leon Brittain if everyone at Westminster knew of his perversions... Mann replied " It's another world in Westminster... we won't expose """"""""Labour MP if you don't expose """"""""Conservative M.P. and he named two very well known politicians who are still alive.... The public don't know the half...

[rossyrooney 12]

That of course was the case at 2:45pm when the crush outside was occurring.

 

The Taylor report had a breakdown of all turnstiles at the Leppings Lane end and what their capacity was / persons per hour that could be admitted. In a perfect world they ALL could have got in in time for kick off, but that would have meant fans arriving as the turnstiles opened which of course many didn't.

 

As to why there were more fans arriving late in '89 as opposed to '88 - Taylor also reported the fact that in '89 it was quite a beautiful warm day, and as such it seemed more fans visited the local pubs before going in to the ground than they did the year before.

 

Previous incidents

 

Hillsborough was a regular venue for FA Cup semi-finals in the 1980s, hosting five matches. A crush occurred at the Leppings Lane end of the ground during the 1981 semi-final between Tottenham Hotspur and Wolverhampton Wanderers after hundreds more spectators were permitted to enter the terrace than could safely be accommodated, resulting in 38 injuries, including broken arms, legs and ribs.[15] Police believed there had been a real chance of fatalities had swift action not been taken, and recommended the club reduce its capacity. In a post-match briefing to discuss the incident, Sheffield Wednesday chairman Bert McGee remarked: "********—no one would have been killed".[16][17] This incident prompted Sheffield Wednesday to alter the layout at the Leppings Lane end, dividing the terrace into three separate pens to restrict sideways movement. The terrace was divided into five pens when the club was promoted to the First Division in 1984, and a crush barrier near the access tunnel was removed in 1986 to improve the flow of fans entering and exiting the central enclosure. Its capacity remained unaltered and the safety certificate was not updated. After the crush in 1981, Hillsborough was not chosen to host an FA Cup semi-final for six years until 1987.

Serious overcrowding was observed at the 1987 quarter-final between Sheffield Wednesday and Coventry City[18] and again during the semi-final between Coventry City and Leeds United at Hillsborough.[19] A Leeds fan described disorganisation at the turnstiles and no steward or police direction inside the stadium, resulting in the crowd in one enclosure becoming so compressed he was at times unable to raise and clap his hands. Other accounts told of fans having to be pulled to safety from above.

Liverpool and Nottingham Forest met in the semi-final at Hillsborough in 1988, and fans reported crushing at the Leppings Lane end. Liverpool lodged a complaint before the match in 1989. One supporter wrote to the Football Association and Minister for Sport complaining, "The whole area was packed solid to the point where it was impossible to move and where I, and others around me, felt considerable concern for personal safety".[20] After changes to the ground's layout in 1981, its safety certificate became invalid and was not renewed. At the time of the disaster, the ground had no safety certificate.[21]

The disaster

 

Build-up

 

As is common at domestic matches in England, opposing supporters were segregated. Nottingham Forest supporters were allocated the South and East ends (Spion Kop) with a combined capacity of 29,800, reached by 60 turnstiles spaced along two sides of the ground. Liverpool supporters were allocated the North and West ends (Leppings Lane), holding 24,256 fans, reached by 23 turnstiles from a narrow concourse. 10 turnstiles (numbered 1 to 10) provided access to 9,700 seats in the North Stand; a further 6 turnstiles (numbered 11 to 16) provided access to 4,456 seats in the upper tier of the West Stand. Finally, 7 turnstiles (lettered A to G) provided access to 10,100 standing places in the lower tier of the West Stand. Although Liverpool had more supporters, Nottingham Forest was allocated the larger area, to avoid the approach routes of rival fans crossing. As a result of the stadium layout and segregation policy, turnstiles that would normally have been used to enter the North Stand from the east were off-limits and all Liverpool supporters had to converge on a single entrance at Leppings Lane. On match day, radio and television advised fans without tickets not to attend.[22]

 

The masked word from McGhee began with B and ended with ocks, he is not at all well thought of for his belligerent manner and indeed lots of Wednesday supporters still regret his involvement with their club.

[esoneulb 10]

Hillsborough held semi’s for years as did Villa Park, Old Trafford and others without any major incident. For all the previous Hillsborough semi’s (and big matches involving Wednesday) the allocation of tickets for the Leppings Lane end would have been the same as would the number of turnstiles. It has to be remembered in those days all ticket games were rare, the turnstiles dealt with cash so they generally were much slower than they would have been on that day.

It is rare if not unprecedented for the same teams to contest a semi-final but here we had a duplicate of the 1988 game which seemed to go off without any incident, to my mind if a new Ch Supt was going to take a match then it would be this one as they had a blue print.

The difference for the ’89 match was more than usual supporters turned up without tickets, maybe down to opening gates the previous year, for example if they let in 2,000 ticketless fans and each one told 5 friends it is easy to see why so many ticketless fans may have turned up.

The two main causes for the disaster are;

 

A) Thousands of fans without tickets arriving late without tickets

b) The police did not close the central pen prior to opening the gates

 

So we have an inquest to proportion blame therefore opening the way for compensation, my question is; are the following people going to give evidence, Landlords from local pubs, ticketless fans, fans with tickets who arrived late, and local residents?

[rossyrooney 12]

Hillsborough held semi’s for years as did Villa Park, Old Trafford and others without any major incident. For all the previous Hillsborough semi’s (and big matches involving Wednesday) the allocation of tickets for the Leppings Lane end would have been the same as would the number of turnstiles. It has to be remembered in those days all ticket games were rare, the turnstiles dealt with cash so they generally were much slower than they would have been on that day.

It is rare if not unprecedented for the same teams to contest a semi-final but here we had a duplicate of the 1988 game which seemed to go off without any incident, to my mind if a new Ch Supt was going to take a match then it would be this one as they had a blue print.

The difference for the ’89 match was more than usual supporters turned up without tickets, maybe down to opening gates the previous year, for example if they let in 2,000 ticketless fans and each one told 5 friends it is easy to see why so many ticketless fans may have turned up.

The two main causes for the disaster are;

 

A) Thousands of fans without tickets arriving late without tickets

b) The police did not close the central pen prior to opening the gates

 

So we have an inquest to proportion blame therefore opening the way for compensation, my question is; are the following people going to give evidence, Landlords from local pubs, ticketless fans, fans with tickets who arrived late, and local residents?

 

It's difficult to take a discussion seriously never mind the request for a raft of new witnesses if you're going to conjure up figures not discussed anywhere else and then multiply them by five to enhance your theory.

[esoneulb 10]

It's difficult to take a discussion seriously never mind the request for a raft of new witnesses if you're going to conjure up figures not discussed anywhere else and then multiply them by five to enhance your theory.

 

I wasn't suggesting ALL ticketless fans give evidence!

[Ding bat 10]

If this inquest is to be taken seriously there has to be a mention of the fans turning up late and without tickets, they're calling everyone that will give there version of events,

Or keep someone in the witness box and batter them untill they are broken, when they're already broken, to then admit total fault, so far ive heard very little to nothing mentioned about 1 person without a ticket,

 

The police were at fault, the ground was at fault, the FA shouldn't have the Liverpool fans on that end, so its their fault, road works held fans up en route so it's their fault. BUT Liverpool fans MUST admit a % of fault.

[esoneulb 10]

The farcical hearing continues, when is the penny going to drop....

 

This quote is taken from the reporting on Look North 31.3.15, Mr Peter Haynes who was the Deputy Chief Constable at the time was questioned about the lies told by David Duckenfield when he said the fans charged the gates open, he agreed about the terrible untruth because 'it laid the blame for the deaths at the very people who died'.

 

NO NO NO the people who died were the true football fans who were in the ground early and completely innocent!!!!

[Dannyno 19]

Pedantry. Why concentrate on that bit, rather than on the much more significant point that Duckenfield lied about the behaviour of the Liverpool fans.

 

It's not a crime to be late to a football match. The responsibility here lies with the people whose job was to manage the crowds.

[barnie41 29]

There is no doubt of that, but a FULL enquiry needs to understand why so many folk were outside the ground with only minutes to go before kick off. Or does the enquiry only really look at what happened with respect to the Police/ stewards AT the ground.

It's either a full investigation or it isn't.

If it was a murder enquiry, would they only look at what happened at the time of the fatality or would they investigate everything that led up to the final act?

I am not defending the actions of SYP - far from it - but hope that the criminal and IPCC enquiries are going to look at the whole picture - and not just the actions of those in positions of authority or wearing green jackets/ blue uniforms.

[esoneulb 10]

Pedantry. Why concentrate on that bit, rather than on the much more significant point that Duckenfield lied about the behaviour of the Liverpool fans.

 

It's not a crime to be late to a football match. The responsibility here lies with the people whose job was to manage the crowds.

 

No it is not a crime to be late for a football match, it had been happening for many years, all without major incident.

 

What I and many others are saying is how can this inquest be credible if non of the large number of latecomers many without tickets will not be giving evidence?

[Daven 10]

Have the residents who lived on the streets around the ground been asked to give evidence in this 'full enquiry' I wonder.

[Mr Bloom 10]

Hillsborough held semi’s for years as did Villa Park, Old Trafford and others without any major incident. For all the previous Hillsborough semi’s (and big matches involving Wednesday) the allocation of tickets for the Leppings Lane end would have been the same as would the number of turnstiles. It has to be remembered in those days all ticket games were rare, the turnstiles dealt with cash so they generally were much slower than they would have been on that day.

It is rare if not unprecedented for the same teams to contest a semi-final but here we had a duplicate of the 1988 game which seemed to go off without any incident, to my mind if a new Ch Supt was going to take a match then it would be this one as they had a blue print.

The difference for the ’89 match was more than usual supporters turned up without tickets, maybe down to opening gates the previous year, for example if they let in 2,000 ticketless fans and each one told 5 friends it is easy to see why so many ticketless fans may have turned up.

The two main causes for the disaster are;

 

A) Thousands of fans without tickets arriving late without tickets

b) The police did not close the central pen prior to opening the gates

 

So we have an inquest to proportion blame therefore opening the way for compensation, my question is; are the following people going to give evidence, Landlords from local pubs, ticketless fans, fans with tickets who arrived late, and local residents?

 

You can't expect to write lies and for them not to go unchallenged. Every official investigation in to this myth has come back with the conclusion, based on the all the evidence available, that this was just that - a myth!

 

If you have some new evidence, that supports your statement, then please do share it.

 

---------- Post added 01-04-2015 at 18:38 ----------

 

That of course was the case at 2:45pm when the crush outside was occurring.

 

The Taylor report had a breakdown of all turnstiles at the Leppings Lane end and what their capacity was / persons per hour that could be admitted. In a perfect world they ALL could have got in in time for kick off, but that would have meant fans arriving as the turnstiles opened which of course many didn't.

 

As to why there were more fans arriving late in '89 as opposed to '88 - Taylor also reported the fact that in '89 it was quite a beautiful warm day, and as such it seemed more fans visited the local pubs before going in to the ground than they did the year before.

 

What time did the turnstiles open? According to this source - it was suggested that fans should aim to be in the ground for 2:45 - but people were already being pulled out up in to the stand then, weren't they?

 

https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.com/tag/hillsborough-disaster-hillsborough-lateness/