Hillsborough document release

[JFKvsNixon 11]

What did they need hindsight for? They could see the empty pens and were watching them on cctv for long enough.

 

Hindsight? They didn't even need foresight!

 

I agree, fans have turned up drunk and late for football matches for decades. How can a situation arise where this seems to take the police by surprise?

[esoneulb 10]

I agree, fans have turned up drunk and late for football matches for decades. How can a situation arise where this seems to take the police by surprise?

 

Because there was a higher than normal amount of scousers that day, I believe mainly because the police let many thousand in the previous year. If each fan went back to Liverpool and told 10 mates that you just turn up without a ticket and the police just open the gates, this is what you get.

[Daven 10]

Because there was a higher than normal amount of scousers that day, I believe mainly because the police let many thousand in the previous year. If each fan went back to Liverpool and told 10 mates that you just turn up without a ticket and the police just open the gates, this is what you get.

 

Which was exacerbated by Kenny Dalgish encouraging fans to turn up without tickets on national TV.

[Mr Bloom 10]

Hindsight after the event.

Try not to focus all your blame on the police if you can - they were only one part of what went wrong on that terrible day....

As I keep stating - hindsight is a marvellous thing.

 

Yes, I'm well aware that hindsight is 'after the event'.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Mr Bloom

[Hammerstein 10]

Yes, I'm well aware that hindsight is 'after the event'. My point was, you said hindsight is a marvellous thing in response to my statement that the pens were empty on either side of the ill-fated pens 3 and 4. I replied that hindsight was not needed, and not even a little foresight, as it was there for all to see, including fans, that those pens were empty and not filling up half an hour before the game right up until the game was abandoned. The police had access to cctv and good viewpoints in the ground to see this. It was their job to see this. That is what they were being paid handsomely to do.

 

I do not lay all the blame with the police and never have and continue to praise some police officers for their bravery in standing up to the subsequent corruption and for their compassionate and upstanding performances on the day of the disaster. There were many contributing factors, not only the mismanagement by the police but also the FA, the safety executive, an inadequate disaster-response programme, etc and, if you like, a small minority of fans from all the major clubs who had used the sport as an outlet for mindless acts of violence since the sixties - when my father can first remember violence at a match when Leeds fans began attacking Sheffield United fans without provocation at Bramall Lane.

 

I would therefore appreciate it if you took your ill-informed, patronising, simplistic comments and examine them along with all my posts on this thread carefully before making similar comments again.

 

---------- Post added 10-06-2014 at 16:37 ----------

 

 

Which was brought about by the police, the FA, and Sheffield Wednesday giving Liverpool the smaller end again, after letters had already been written to the FA regarding the wholly inadequate and potentially dangerous (which proved to be fatal) arrangements the previous year.

 

Dalglish incited fans into arriving without tickets which made the problem the police were having in trying to control the unruly mob many times worse that it should have been .Those who didn't have a ticket and were intent on getting into the ground were not likely to queue politely. They would seize any opportunity to storm the gates which is what happened - sadly, we all know the result.

[No User Name 10]

 

Which was brought about by the police, the FA, and Sheffield Wednesday giving Liverpool the smaller end again, after letters had already been written to the FA regarding the wholly inadequate and potentially dangerous (which proved to be fatal) arrangements the previous year.

 

So thats meant it was alright for him to go on telly and encourage ticketless fans then? :loopy:

[Mr Bloom 10]

So thats meant it was alright for him to go on telly and encourage ticketless fans then? :loopy:

 

I have not seen any evidence that Dalglish in fact did this.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Mr Bloom

[Daven 10]

IF that is what he attempted to do, all evidence from the Taylor report demonstrates that (fortunately) this did not in fact happen. In fact the Taylor report mentions fans with tickets with their stubs intact as they were not taken from them at the ground. The footage itself is also testament to this, as the pens adjacent to the central pens were empty.

 

I have not seen any evidence that Dalglish in fact did this. I am not disputing the argument that he did, but I would like to see evidence of it and what exactly was said. I had heard from third parties that the FA had given assurances that Liverpool fans would be able to see the game, but as I have not been presented with any evidence of this have not commented on this so far.

 

From the accounts I have read from survivors and the Hillsborough families and the wider Liverpool FC community, I have been left with the impression that Kenny Dalglish behaved in an extraordinarily compassionate and respectful manner to them.

Of course he did - after the tragedy. He really would have had no option.

However, the fact remains, he DID incite fans to arrive at Hillsborough without tickets and he will have to live with that guilt for the rest of his life - and quite rightly so.

[Mr Bloom 10]

Dalglish incited fans into arriving without tickets which made the problem the police were having in trying to control the unruly mob many times worse that it should have been .Those who didn't have a ticket and were intent on getting into the ground were not likely to queue politely. They would seize any opportunity to storm the gates which is what happened - sadly, we all know the result.

 

It wasn't just Liverpool fans that did this though, was it?

Edited April 29, 2015 by Mr Bloom

[kazads53 10]

It wasn't just Liverpool fans that did this though, was it? Everyone and their grandmother knew that this was a weak spot at the ground and that's why it should have been protected. iWhere do you get your evidence that his happened on this particular day? As it's been stated huge amounts of ticketless fans turning up is a myth. Do you still believe the police's line that fans stormed the gate and forced it open? Even they've had to give up on that one!

 

If fans had been directed and filtered through an organised approach to the ground as had apparently happened the previous year, then there would not have been an 'unruly mob'. It's bizarre, are you a regular match goer?, only as a regular match-goer you know that if you've not been 'filtered' appropriately, this happens, large, excited, crowds of fans who unexpectedly find themselves in a relatively unfamiliar and possibly dangerous situation, particularly where crushing injuries may ensue, where they don't want to be, whether they be at a football match or an Elton John concert, don't tend to be that great at organising themselves.

 

This would have been exacerbated by the fact of the short arrival time as printed on the tickets. In fact if all fans had arrived by that time, the Taylor report says that due to inadequate turnstiles and filtering there would still be a large number of fans outside the ground at the time of kick-off. Maybe it's actually a good job that a lot of people did hang around enjoying the sunshine and soaking up the atmosphere, enjoying another pint, or maybe the situation would have been even worse if they had not had this staggered approach of fans.

 

I think your post highlights the mindset of the day then, you, the police, the tabloid press, see 'an unruly mob', whereas a regular match go-er would see a mismanaged set of individuals like you and me.

 

---------- Post added 10-06-2014 at 17:47 ----------

 

 

And they still do. And they still sell alcohol (with a huge mark up of course!) at Wembley concourse. And fans have it almost poured down their throats incessantly, the Carling Cup, advert after advert in association with sports events, and not to forget the supermarkets urging us to stock up our ale in huge quantities ready to watch the games at home.

 

And still fans who have been drinking are labelled as the evil-doers!

 

Enjoying the sun and soaking up the atmosphere...were you anywhere near hillsborough that day...there were hundreds of drunken fans that's not what they were doing,as I said before ask the local residents..you arnt going to accept they had anything to do with it are you?..just blame everyone else..that's your opinion and your welcome to it but it's not mine I know what I saw..

[Lockjaw 11]

Enjoying the sun and soaking up the atmosphere...were you anywhere near hillsborough that day...there were hundreds of drunken fans that's not what they were doing,as I said before ask the local residents..you arnt going to accept they had anything to do with it are you?..just blame everyone else..that's your opinion and your welcome to it but it's not mine I know what I saw..

 

Is your memory more, or less accurate than your Latin?

[Bunny Marsh 18]

I think the comment about 'fans not being filtered and directed' is a very relevant one......I believe the police brief that morning was something along the lines of....'this year we are going to do it differently, we are not going to treat the supporters like animals, but treat them like we would theatre crowds or tennis crowds'.......I was told this on the morning of the match by someone on duty there......how sadly ironic.......