Trans Women Are Women. To Disagree Is Hate.

[Phanerothyme 12]

7 hours ago, leviathan13 said:

You say we need to get rid of all the boxes, but the trans community are the ones adding the extra boxes: millions of extra pronouns and genders. I've just come across a new one today: NOMAP - Non-Offending Minor Attracted Person; apparently there's a movement within the LGBTQABC123  community calling for, essentially, paedophiles to be allowed to have feelings for children and for the rest of the world to be OK with it because they're 'Non-Offending' i.e. not doing anything with their desire.

 

And the problem we now have is that, at the merest hint of tomboyish behaviour or a boy showing an interest in women's' clothes and make-up, the parents are quick to push them down the trans route. The last thing a 7yo needs is to be more confused about the world than they already are.

 

A person's lifestyle can have an effect on the wider population as we're seeing with the trans-women in women's sports and biological men being allowed in to female spaces: toilets/prisons/changing rooms etc. The issue with this is that you can't even question it as you will be labelled -phobic. It's basically become a religion that cannot be scrutinised.

 

To this day, beyond man/woman/male/female, no one can tell me what a 'gender' actually is. I get told it's how someone 'identifies', but that's not an explanation. If someone is gay, that's to do with who  they're attracted to - easy.  If someone transitions from one gender to the other and goes through the full change to live as the opposite gender because they were 'born in the wrong body' - I get that and understand it, to a point. But 70+ genders? Eh? I just cannot get it and no one has managed to give a satisfactory explanation. Apparently gender is not linked to sex or sexuality... so what is it?

 

And then you get to the part where it's phobic, as a heterosexual person, not to want to sleep with someone who has the same genitals as you. Basically, if you aren't attracted to a trans person, you're phobic. It's called genital discrimination or some such nonsense.

 

This whole scenario makes me think of 'How many lights' from 1984 - you can tell me there are 5, but I know deep down there are 4.

Jesus wept. "No one can tell me what a 'gender' actually is".

It's really not up to people to tell you. If it concerns you, find out about it. It's no-one else's responsibility but your own to educate yourself about gender, sex, attraction etc.

There's reputable science and good, well balanced writing on the subject and a long history of sexuality and gender too if you're willing to look.

 

That's a choice you can make.



 

[leviathan13 350]

6 hours ago, Phanerothyme said:

Jesus wept. "No one can tell me what a 'gender' actually is".

It's really not up to people to tell you. If it concerns you, find out about it. It's no-one else's responsibility but your own to educate yourself about gender, sex, attraction etc.

There's reputable science and good, well balanced writing on the subject and a long history of sexuality and gender too if you're willing to look.

 

That's a choice you can make.



 

Ah... the old "It's not my job to educate you" stance.

 

A quick Google search for what is gender mentions masculinity and femininity and that gender is a 'social construction' of traits that distinguish between them...

 

So, 2 genders and people identify as either, both or none... that's, arguably, 4 genders (although can 'non-binary' be classed as a gender? A bit like when religious people try to claim that atheism is still a religion) - where do the other 64+ genders come from and what are they?

[Guest makapaka]

17 hours ago, leviathan13 said:

You say we need to get rid of all the boxes, but the trans community are the ones adding the extra boxes: millions of extra pronouns and genders. I've just come across a new one today: NOMAP - Non-Offending Minor Attracted Person; apparently there's a movement within the LGBTQABC123  community calling for, essentially, paedophiles to be allowed to have feelings for children and for the rest of the world to be OK with it because they're 'Non-Offending' i.e. not doing anything with their desire.

 

And the problem we now have is that, at the merest hint of tomboyish behaviour or a boy showing an interest in women's' clothes and make-up, the parents are quick to push them down the trans route. The last thing a 7yo needs is to be more confused about the world than they already are.

 

A person's lifestyle can have an effect on the wider population as we're seeing with the trans-women in women's sports and biological men being allowed in to female spaces: toilets/prisons/changing rooms etc. The issue with this is that you can't even question it as you will be labelled -phobic. It's basically become a religion that cannot be scrutinised.

 

To this day, beyond man/woman/male/female, no one can tell me what a 'gender' actually is. I get told it's how someone 'identifies', but that's not an explanation. If someone is gay, that's to do with who  they're attracted to - easy.  If someone transitions from one gender to the other and goes through the full change to live as the opposite gender because they were 'born in the wrong body' - I get that and understand it, to a point. But 70+ genders? Eh? I just cannot get it and no one has managed to give a satisfactory explanation. Apparently gender is not linked to sex or sexuality... so what is it?

 

And then you get to the part where it's phobic, as a heterosexual person, not to want to sleep with someone who has the same genitals as you. Basically, if you aren't attracted to a trans person, you're phobic. It's called genital discrimination or some such nonsense.

 

This whole scenario makes me think of 'How many lights' from 1984 - you can tell me there are 5, but I know deep down there are 4.

Great post and completely on the money.

 

i just ignore it - it’s easier. A modern day nonsense.

Edited August 17, 2022 by makapaka

[sheffbag 230]

14 hours ago, Phanerothyme said:

Jesus wept. "No one can tell me what a 'gender' actually is".

It's really not up to people to tell you. If it concerns you, find out about it. It's no-one else's responsibility but your own to educate yourself about gender, sex, attraction etc.

There's reputable science and good, well balanced writing on the subject and a long history of sexuality and gender too if you're willing to look.

 

That's a choice you can make.



 

except it is if they are trying to enforce their "rights" on you and demand you make changes to accomodate them 

Edited August 17, 2022 by sheffbag

[Phanerothyme 12]

…

Edited August 17, 2022 by Phanerothyme
didn't write anything

[Phanerothyme 12]

12 hours ago, leviathan13 said:

Ah... the old "It's not my job to educate you" stance.

 

You say that as if it's a rhetorical device.

It's not a rhetorical device, it's my honestly held opinion - see what you can learn, you might be surprised at what you find.

 

But if the furthest you're willing to go in understanding a complex and difficult topic about people and how they feel is to skim read google results, then any discussion we're likely to have here is going to be unedifying and futile.

 

I'm no expert, or scholar - I don't have a radical or extremist view either IMO, but I have tried to get my head around the terminology and gain some insight into how trans people (in particular) experience the world, because it's important to me to understand - rather than take an immovable, extreme position and defend it.

Read around. It's sounds to me like you've been dwelling on the gender critical side of the debate, with a side order of manufactured culture war, and you've made up your mind - that's fine - it's not my job, nor an inviting prospect, to try and convince you any different.

I would only remind everyone that so-called normal common sense beliefs, as expressed in society today, do make other, different, people quite miserable.

And if they say that this is what's happening to them, it's not up to us to disbelieve them, but to see if its reasonable to change or even just tweak our 'common sense beliefs' so they are less miserable, and maybe even a bit happy.

That's where I'm starting from.

 

[leviathan13 350]

1 hour ago, Phanerothyme said:

You say that as if it's a rhetorical device.

It's not a rhetorical device, it's my honestly held opinion - see what you can learn, you might be surprised at what you find.

 

But if the furthest you're willing to go in understanding a complex and difficult topic about people and how they feel is to skim read google results, then any discussion we're likely to have here is going to be unedifying and futile.

 

I'm no expert, or scholar - I don't have a radical or extremist view either IMO, but I have tried to get my head around the terminology and gain some insight into how trans people (in particular) experience the world, because it's important to me to understand - rather than take an immovable, extreme position and defend it.

Read around. It's sounds to me like you've been dwelling on the gender critical side of the debate, with a side order of manufactured culture war, and you've made up your mind - that's fine - it's not my job, nor an inviting prospect, to try and convince you any different.

I would only remind everyone that so-called normal common sense beliefs, as expressed in society today, do make other, different, people quite miserable.

And if they say that this is what's happening to them, it's not up to us to disbelieve them, but to see if its reasonable to change or even just tweak our 'common sense beliefs' so they are less miserable, and maybe even a bit happy.

That's where I'm starting from.

 

So... do you know what a 'gender' is? Seeing as you've obviously read more than me.

[Phanerothyme 12]

17 hours ago, leviathan13 said:

So... do you know what a 'gender' is? Seeing as you've obviously read more than me.

I know how I choose to understand it, but I wouldn't want to insist it's the correct definition, or even that a correct definition exists tbh. Where people and their minds are concerned, I think its helpful to think of traits and characteristics (behavioural and physical, mental and apparent) are continua rather than categories.

[onewheeldave 22]

18 hours ago, leviathan13 said:

So... do you know what a 'gender' is? Seeing as you've obviously read more than me.

 

11 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

I know how I choose to understand it, but I wouldn't want to insist it's the correct definition, or even that a correct definition exists tbh. Where people and their minds are concerned, I think its helpful to think of traits and characteristics (behavioural and physical, mental and apparent) are continua rather than categories.

Given that people who 'misunderstand ' gender are being penalised I think it is important to actually have a definition for the term, isn't it.

 

As  starting point, how about-

"Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed.  This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time."

[World Health Organisation]

 

https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1

[leviathan13 350]

53 minutes ago, onewheeldave said:

 

Given that people who 'misunderstand ' gender are being penalised I think it is important to actually have a definition for the term, isn't it.

 

As  starting point, how about-

"Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed.  This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time."

[World Health Organisation]

 

https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1

So... 2 genders and anything else is just a personality trait?

[Phanerothyme 12]

4 hours ago, onewheeldave said:

 

Given that people who 'misunderstand ' gender are being penalised I think it is important to actually have a definition for the term, isn't it.

 

Yep, they're definitely the victims of the piece, this should all be about them.

[onewheeldave 22]

52 minutes ago, Phanerothyme said:

Yep, they're definitely the victims of the piece, this should all be about them.

There are victims on both sides