Quran and Modern Science - Conflict or Conciliation?

[Phanerothyme]

I always thought Khomeini looked a bit camp. http://tinyurl.com/jqpmh

[downtroad]

I take it you don't consider confirmed athiests like Richard Dawkins & Nobel Laureates such as Francis Crick & Steven Weinberg to be major scientists.

 

Look the science has always been clear.

 

Firstly the issues was if the Univerce was finite or infinate. If it was finate the Universe was pre-planned (suggesting a deity), if it was infinate it was not. This battle in science lasted until relativlt recently. Just a few decades ago. Without a clear answer to that question there was no a single scientist who could claim to know the answer, and scientists are very clear (including all those you listed) to not presume to know, but to say it is their opinion, their gut feeling.

 

In the last 20 or so years the science has changed to String Theory. Every major physisist has embraced it. And once again it muddies the waters, and there is no clear answer.

 

Scientist, unlike Sheffield Forum posters are very, very carfull with their words. Never saying "i know" but saying things like "the evidence points to" or "i feel".

 

Now to the specifics.

 

Weinberg, this lays out his views and he does not say he knows their is no God.

 

http://www.physlink.com/Education/essay_weinberg.cfm

 

Now Crick.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/connected/main.jhtml?xml=/connected/2003/03/19/ecfgod19.xml&sSheet=/connected/2003/03/19/ixconn.html

 

"The tragedy is that many people believe that, if evolution is true, which it clearly is, then God can't be true." However, he blamed this on the reaction of the scientific establishment to the literal interpretation of Genesis by Creationists, views not held by respectable theologians.

 

"It is not just the fringe elements of the Church that are demanding a Creationist view in order to prove that you are a true believer; it is also the scientific community fringe who are basically saying that evolution proves there is no God."

 

So once again he does not ruke out God, but atribute this notion that evolution rules out God to the "scientific community fringe". Once again not ruling out god.

 

Dawkins. Now it needs to be understood that Dawkins is taking an admiral position is agressivly attacking creationist with some of their own tools. He calls God a dangeous delusion (and i agree with him, when used as a conrtol mechanism its extreamly dangerous), but when it boils doewn to it, what does he base this off? Lack of evidence for a God. Which is all well and good, but thats not saying a God may not exists, he cannot say that. As an evelutionarty biologist his field of science will never answer that question, it will come from Physics.

 

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/04/30/dawkins/index.html

 

There is just no evidence for the existence of God. Evolution by natural selection is a process that works up from simple beginnings, and simple beginnings are easy to explain. The engineer or any other living thing is difficult to explain -- but it is explicable by evolution by natural selection. So the relevance of evolutionary biology to atheism is that evolutionary biology gives us the only known mechanism whereby the illusion of design, or apparent design, could ever come into the universe anywhere.

 

So to answer your question, none of the scientists you have listed, or any other has ruled out god, and increasingly we cannot.

 

So while non-scientists continue to bicker over questions they cannot contemplate, let alone are working to answer, scientists have always taken the more scientific view. We do not have any evidence that can absolutly rule out a god. We can pick apart the bible, we can back up evolutions which refutes large parts of the bible and religious beleif, but we cannot theoretically rule out a deity.

[plekhanov]

I was talking about "The Quran will never contradict established science" which you changed to something else.

How have I?

 

7:80 And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?

 

Is a verse from the Koran is it not? That other species engage in homosexual behaviour is 'established science' therefore the Koran contradicts established science.

 

Observations? Documented fact? homosexual behaviour? are these animals gay? who knows what they are doing?

Well if anybody does it would be the professional scientists who have spent their lives studying anmal behaviour who have independently observed homosexual behaviour in many species. Did you even read the article I linked to in my previous post?

 

does not mean they are gay. Dog sniffing another’s ass, is that dog gay? Man hugging another man, some might observe this as homosexual behaviour. Read back my other posts before bringing this or any other topic up again.

Don't be absurd, dogs smelling each other is normal social behaviour which doesn't necessarily have a sexual meaning, no doubt there are many animal behaviours which are somewhat ambiguous however when for example male bonobos engage in mutual masturbation that is obviously homosexual behaviour and nobody can honestly claim it is anything else.

 

In order to interpret something you must know about the original language. These translations might use words that the translator did not think would be an issue for anyone. Also other things get confused and lost in translation such as metaphors. You can still read a transition and get the main parts as well as many other parts but if you have a problem with understanding any part then you would ask someone who would know (expert in Arabic and Quran).

From my previous post "if you feel this interpretation [of 7:80] is inaccurate by all means put forward your interpretation.", if you think my interpretation is inaccurate then say how and why it is so and suggest an alternative, why have you failed to do this?

[Rzaa]

Can gay muslims be gay and muslim?

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1405460.stm

 

Islam teaches agonised Homosexuality but then it also forbids alcohol and some who say they are Muslim might drink and say they are still Muslim. So it’s not for me to say. I might do something that is agenised the teachings of Islam but I would say I am still a Muslim. What I won't do is something agenised teachings of Islam and then say the teachings are wrong.

[artisan]

Can gay muslims be gay and muslim?

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1405460.stm

 

If they slowly choke 16 year old girls to death for being raped by old men, I would say that homosexuals dont stand a chance.

In certain quarters they are obsessed with sex, that is why they are so frightened of it, or so it seems to me.

[Rzaa]

From my previous post "if you feel this interpretation [of 7:80] is inaccurate by all means put forward your interpretation.", if you think my interpretation is inaccurate then say how and why it is so and suggest an alternative, why have you failed to do this?

 

I was referring to the previous ones and even afar I corrected them for you, you still had problems with them. As for this verse read my previous posts.

[4U2NV]

The stance on homosexual behaviour is the same in all 3 Abrahamic religions.

Its a sin and an abomination.

[Rzaa]

If they slowly choke 16 year old girls to death for being raped by old men, I would say that homosexuals dont stand a chance.

In certain quarters they are obsessed with sex, that is why they are so frightened of it, or so it seems to me.

 

"choke 16 year old girls to death for being raped by old men"

 

Tell me were it says you should do that in the Quran or authentic Hadiths? If some group of people did it they blame them not the religion. They did it in spite of being Muslims not because of it.

[artisan]

"choke 16 year old girls to death for being raped by old men"

 

Tell me were it says you should do that in the Quran or authentic Hadiths? If some group of people did it they blame them not the religion. They did it in spite of being Muslims not because of it.

 

OK sorry, you cannot tar everyone with same brush, I agree.

[Zafar]

Can gay muslims be gay and muslim?

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1405460.stm

 

Its a question of promotion.

 

Whilst in Islam many actions are banned, such as for instance the drinking of alchohol. What a person does in his or her privacy is not a concern of anyone else beside the person carrying out the act and God.

 

Whilst some people may say that God banned this, therefore someone committing this act is going to hell, the general consensus is that God is Merciful. A simple kind act may be sufficient to clear many other Sins as the final judgement lies with God and not any else.

 

However, when people march in public to 'promote' their actions then its plain wrong.

 

There is a lot of pressure from Pro Gay rights groups for people to 'come out'.

 

This simply serves the purpose of the groups, and whether it actually has any long term benefits for those 'coming out' is another question.

 

Nonetheless, for any muslims to publicly 'brag' about breaking Islamic laws is wrong, that includes drinking alchohol, adultry, homosexuality etc.

 

Z