Evidence Bombs were planted beneath trains on 7/7

[Longcol 610]

Who were the managers ?have they ever come out in defence of power ?

And who were the managers managing ?

 

1) Managers of Reed Elsevier who Visor Consultants were working with.

 

2) I don't think anyone has ever asked them.

 

3) It was a scenario so at the time they weren't managing anybody.

 

http://clareswinney.wordpress.com/2009/05/07/peter-power-divulges-it-was-reed-elsevier-he-was-working-for-on-77-a-company-criticized-for-its-links-to-the-arms-industry/

[vResistance 10]

1) Managers of Reed Elsevier who Visor Consultants were working with.

 

2) I don't think anyone has ever asked them.

 

3) It was a scenario so at the time they weren't managing anybody.

 

http://clareswinney.wordpress.com/2009/05/07/peter-power-divulges-it-was-reed-elsevier-he-was-working-for-on-77-a-company-criticized-for-its-links-to-the-arms-industry/

 

Hmm ,not really the kind of people i would trust.

[Longcol 610]

Hmm ,not really the kind of people i would trust.

 

But you would trust two self proclaimed Messiahs and a Holocaust denier?

[danot 10]

Godwin!

 

You also seem to have a comprehension problem.

:clap::clap:100 House points:clap::clap:

[RobFr 10]

Thank-you for your post Dosxuk. Please see my reply and documentation below.

 

Dosxuk: OK, Rob - lets have a look at some of John's claims (I've taken the liberty of moving my reply to the correct thread).

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobFr

-Peter Power and his firm Visor Consultants were conducting mock terrorists drills for a client on 7/7/2005 in the exact same locations as the actual bombs went off that were allegedly detonated by 4 Muslims.

Dosxuk:There is probably a mock exercise of some sort happening every day in London, many which will involve a "what if the public transport network is attacked".

 

Rob: Do you have any evidence to back this statement up please or is this just a wild guess on your part?

 

Dosxuk: Peter Power has never revealed which company he was working for on that day, or the exact details of what they were doing,

 

Rob: Peter Power has admitted on live television that he and his company Visor Consultants were conducting their mock terrorist exercise on 7/7/2005 in the exact same locations and at the exact times that the bombs went off. That is pretty detailed information available to anyone who wishes to view his television interview from that day. I have posted what he actually said below.

 

Dosxuk: and there appears to be no evidence of it being more than a hypothetical exercise - i.e. not involving the emergency services / london underground / TfL.

 

Rob: There is lots of evidence supporting that the exercise went "live", just as Peter Power himself said on live television in his interview. The odds of the 4 alleged bombers choosing the exact same scenario as Peter Power and his unnamed client chose and then both of them being in the exact same places at the exact same times is so infinitesimal/astronomical that it isn't even worth considering, so it couldn't have been a coincidence.

 

Dosxuk: It appears to have only come to light due to it causing some minor communication errors on the day, not because thousands of actors were coming out of bombed trains going "I knew we were doing an exercise, but I didn't expect it to be that realistic".

 

Rob: No one has ever claimed there were "thousands of actors coming out of bombed trains". What Peter Power did say is below in a transcript from the Radio 5 Live programme:

 

POWER: ...at half-past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for, er, over, a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing upright!

 

PETER ALLEN: To get this quite straight, you were running an exercise to see how you would cope with this and it happened while you were running the exercise?

 

POWER: Precisely, and it was, er, about half-past nine this morning, we planned this for a company and for obvious reasons I don't want to reveal their name but they're listening and they'll know it. And we had a room full of crisis managers for the first time they'd met and so within five minutes we made a pretty rapid decision, 'this is the real one' and so we went through the correct drills of activating crisis management procedures to jump from 'slow time' to 'quick time' thinking and so on.

Which should hopefully clear up any misconceptions you may have about any of the previous points.

 

Dosxuk: I also fail to understand the link that is made (and drawn to tedious length with John's probablility mathematics towards the end), between a private company doing a mock terror drill, and the Government attacking the public.

 

Rob: Understood. It is the infinitesimally small chance that the 4 alleged bombers could have chosen the exact same scenario at the exact same locations and times that makes the government story unbelievable. To put it into context:

 

The probability of the 7/7/2005 Drill and Attack Coinciding, without being planned to coincide, in a 10 year period is: ONE Chance 3,715,592,613,265,750,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

 

Estimate of Grains of sand in the whole world: 7,500,000,000,000,000,000

 

If I go to a beach, or a desert, or under the sea and pick a single grain of sand. What chance is there of you going to the same part of the world, by chance, and picking up the same grain?

 

You are trillions of times more likely to do this, than the London drill coinciding with this attack at that hour.

 

That would make the official government story unbelievable, wouldn't you agree?

 

 

Dosxuk: The story John puts forward does not rely on Peter Power's exercise going on, so why put so much empasis on it happening at the same time?

 

Rob: It is part of the official story that has been proven to be false and it is an obvious smoking gun.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobFr

-the bombs themselves have been proven to be military grade high explosives, which would not be available to Muslim suicide bombers

 

Dosxuk: Some media sources have reported that the bombs contained traces of high explosive.

 

Rob: Yes. In fact most media sources did so shortly after the attacks, which they had confirmed by military explosive experts (sources were provided in another reply so anyone can search this out for themselves).

 

It was only later that they started to change their stories, some to the point that they tried to tell people it was possible to make these bombs in bathtubs, which is simply not true. The highly volatile nature of TATP/TCAP (which is considered to be a high explosive), especially if it is not processed in laboratory conditions (to ensure impurities are not introduced even in extremely minute amounts) would have precluded its use by the alleged 7/7 bombers.

 

Dosxuk: They have not suggested that this is military grade, but they have suggested it was of similar composition to that used in the Madrid train bombings, indicating that terrorists are currently capable of sourcing high explosive, or making up bombs which have a similar signature.

 

Rob: As above please. If you study the conditions required to manufacturer these explosives, you will find that it is not feasible.

 

"When the reaction is carried out without proper equipment the risk of an accident is significant."

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide

 

Thinking that common people who do not have access to an unlimited budget could somehow perform miracles with explosives whilst ignoring those who have unlimited access to the same materials seems to be wishful thinking. The military/intelligence agencies have the money, the materials and the means to carry these things out. Unfunded Muslims don't.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobFr

-the explosions on the tube trains exploded upward through the floors and derailed the trains, which means they were fastened underneath the carriages and could not possibly have been in ruck sacks inside the train (which would have exploded downwards through the floors)

Dosxuk: This image - http://jforjustice.co.uk/77/images/B...eath-floor.jpg - from John's own site, clearly shows the floor deformed downwards towards the ground - not upwards as John says.

 

Rob: Better have another look. In the image you are referencing, there is a heavy steel floor support beam shown in the photo in its typical position (although mangled), which is horizontal and underneath the floor itself, and another heavy steel floor support beam next to it blown apart and pointed UPWARDS from the explosion, EXACTLY as John Hill says.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobFr

-the 7:40A train from Luton station to Thames Link at King Cross that the 4 alleged bombers were supposed to have caught was canceled, as was the next train, so the alleged bombers could not have possibly been on the 3 tube trains that exploded

 

Dosxuk: According to Thameslink, only the 0740 train was cancelled. However, the previous train - the late running 0730, left Luton station at 0742, arriving into Kings Cross with sufficient time for the bombers to get to the Underground.

 

Rob: For an entire year the government's official story was that the 4 alleged 7/7 bombers caught the nonexistent 7:40A train from Luton.

 

When they finally realized that the train had been cancelled (and the 7:48A had been delayed until 7:56A, if you prefer, and thus arrived too late) they changed their story to the 4 catching the 7:24A which left at 7:25A. That didn't work either because their own time stamped photo didn't allow enough time for the 4 to actually get to the platform during rush hour to catch the train from Luton given they were carrying heavy backpacks supposedly with home-made explosives made in their bathtubs and it had taken them 5 full minutes during the dummy run on 28 June 2005 to get down to the platform.

 

So now we are to believe they caught the 7:30A, which was delayed until 7:42A and arrived at Thameslink Kingcross at 8:39A. Okay. Please explain how the alleged 7/7 bomber of the Eastbound Circle line train (204) was able to catch it to blow it up if he didn't arrive at King's Cross until 4 minutes AFTER it departed? Are you starting to see that no matter which way you go the official story just doesn't work?

 

 

08.35 : The Eastbound Circle line train (204) that exploded, leaves King’s Cross.

 

08:39 : The scheduled 07:30 Luton – King’s Cross Thameslink that left Luton at 07:42 arrives at King's Cross Thameslink

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobFr

-the single frame, time stamped (7:21:54A) photo taken outside of Luton station, that is the primary piece of evidence in the government's story, was obviously fabricated

 

Dosxuk: There is far more evidence that hasn't been released into the public domain which the official report relies on more - for example the confirmed presence of the bombers DNA at the bomb sites.

 

Rob: Even if that were true, it doesn't change the fact that the single frame, time stamped photo taken outside of Luton station was fabricated. It is FULL of flaws. Please see the Luton CCTV analysis at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVDi5Qe11Gc. If the government is fabricating evidence, then NOTHING they say can be trusted.

 

Dosxuk: The single released CCTV image (I remain convinced there are far more images, but they haven't been released because this single image is enough to report the bombings, and it's an ideal picture for printing in the press / showing on television).

 

Rob: It is also an ideal picture to prove that the government is fabricating evidence and thus nothing they tell us can be trusted, including any additional so-called "new evidence" that they might choose to fabricate years later.

 

Dosxuk: If it was a manipulated image, why leave so many flaws –

Rob: The question that really should be asked is WHY was the photo manipulated/fabricated?

 

Dosxuk: flaws which are understandable if you understand how CCTV works (limited resolution, size of lenses, analogue transmission / capture, etc)?

 

Rob: Flaws which are understandable? Do CCTV cameras reverse images in mirrors? Make railings appear to run through people's necks? Cause concrete curbs to be reshaped? Take chunks out of people's legs?

 

If so, then why did the very same cameras not do this on 28 June 2005 when the 4 alleged 7/7 bombers were caught on the same camera during the dummy run? You can't have it both ways.

 

Dosxuk: Secondly, why only release one image? Why not release all the images captured on the first London trip with modified timestamps? It's not difficult to manipulate an image.

 

Rob: That is a question that you will need to ask the authorities. Based on the one very badly doctored single frame, time stamped photo outside of Luton station, they may not have wanted to embarrass themselves further.

 

Dosxuk: Finally, it would be quite easy to prove the image is representative - all you need is permission to recreate the scene and to get a capture from that camera at Luton station.

 

Rob: Or just look at the footage taken on 28 July 2005 during the "dummy run", where it took them five minutes from the lower-ground entrance door to go through the station, get their tickets and go onto the platform.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobFr

-the mainstream media reported that 3 of the alleged suicide bombers were shot dead in Canary Wharf. How did suicide bombers survive the suicide bombings to be shot in Canary Wharf?

 

Dosxuk: According to John's film, one network broadcast this story as a "report" and then never repeated that report. It was subsequently picked up by a handful of newspapers (mostly foreign), with one even managing to find a witness (albeight third hand - they hadn't seen it themselves), however, the witness only saw one person being shot.

 

Rob: Then why do you suppose they locked down the entire Wharf and told the 8000 workers in the 44-story HSBC tower to stay away from the windows and remain in the building for at least 6 hours? Please read "What Happened at Canary Wharf" by Dr. Rory Ridley-Duff.

 

Dosxuk: The same networks broadcast numerous times that six trains had been bombed and at least three buses, complete with numerous eye-witnesses happy to be interviewed, yet John never brings up these discrepancies.

 

Rob: The networks initially reported that six tube trains had been bombed and one bus (for a total of seven bombings) which was quickly corrected when it was realized that the tube train explosions took place in between stations and the survivors were simply showing up at the two nearest stations to each of the 3 explosions. That is relatively easy to understand. What happened at Canary Wharf isn't, which is why the paper researched and written by Dr. Rory Ridley-Duff should be studied.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobFr

-the list of other impossibilities with the government's official cover-story is lengthy, so watch the "7/7 Ripple Effect" and do your own research

 

Dosxuk: Unfortunately, while there are some discrepancies in the official report (which I expect many to be answered when MI5 are forced to reveal their secrets in open court as part of the current enquiry),

 

Rob: The "inquest" is supposedly about what could have been done to prevent the 7/7 bombings assuming that the official government story is true. It therefore has its own agenda and should not to be confused with a legitimate and independent investigation of all the available evidence to determine who was really responsible for the bombings and then hold the guilty parties accountable for their actions.

 

Dosxuk: there are far more in John's film, and that's before we even start on the way he ignores facts, uses artistic license to fill in gaps (like why did the bombers go to Canary Wharf? Because that's where the media is. Oh, right, so they couldn't go to Fleet street, the well known home of the newspapers, which is far closer to where they were, or to ITN - based just round the corner from Kings Cross, or back on the train and escape to Manchester and go to any of the media there? I'm sorry, he's making his story up to fit the evidence he's found, not finding evidence to support his story).

 

Rob: Please read what you have written above and give it further consideration. The available evidence suggests that the 4 alleged 7/7 bombers fled to Canary Wharf. The next logical step given that information would be to investigate what happened at Canary Wharf and why. One draws conclusions based on ALL the available evidence, not the other way around.

[vResistance 10]

Excellent stuff that.

You're good RobFr...very good.

[Longcol 610]

When they finally realized that the train had been cancelled (and the 7:48A had been delayed until 7:56A, if you prefer, and thus arrived too late) they changed their story to the 4 catching the 7:24A which left at 7:25A. That didn't work either because their own time stamped photo didn't allow enough time for the 4 to actually get to the platform during rush hour to catch the train from Luton given they were carrying heavy backpacks supposedly with home-made explosives made in their bathtubs and it had taken them 5 full minutes during the dummy run on 28 June 2005 to get down to the platform.

 

 

Arriving at Luton at 7:22 would easily allow people to catch a train leaving at 7:25 if they'd bought tickets in advance. Eminently possible - it's a pretty small station - I could get to any platform on Sheffield station (much bigger than Luton) from the entrance in less than 3 minutes carrying a backpack - used to do it regularly when I was younger and fitter!

[Longcol 610]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobFr

-the bombs themselves have been proven to be military grade high explosives, which would not be available to Muslim suicide bombers

 

Dosxuk: Some media sources have reported that the bombs contained traces of high explosive.

 

Rob: Yes. In fact most media sources did so shortly after the attacks, which they had confirmed by military explosive experts (sources were provided in another reply so anyone can search this out for themselves).

 

 

And here it is with my response - absolutely no evidence it was proven to be high grade military explosives.

 

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7055806&postcount=69

[Alien52 10]

What is an evidence bomb ?

[vResistance 10]

Arriving at Luton at 7:22 would easily allow people to catch a train leaving at 7:25 if they'd bought tickets in advance. Eminently possible - it's a pretty small station - I could get to any platform on Sheffield station (much bigger than Luton) from the entrance in less than 3 minutes carrying a backpack - used to do it regularly when I was younger and fitter!

 

vR....Why would they rush to catch a paticular train ?

Surely any train full of commuters would have done or explode themselves on the platform or in a crowded area of the city or a crowded building ?

Seems they were desperate to get on the trains that coincided with Peter Powers's training exercise.....why ?

 

And here it is with my response - absolutely no evidence it was proven to be high grade military explosives.

 

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7055806&postcount=69

 

vR...And absolutely no evidence it was proven to be homemade explosives either. You think they would thoroughly investigate something like that wouldn't you ?

[Longcol 610]

vR....Why would they rush to catch a paticular train ?

Surely any train full of commuters would have done or explode themselves on the platform or in a crowded area of the city or a crowded building ?

Seems they were desperate to get on the trains that coincided with Peter Powers's training exercise.....why ?

 

 

Like most people I would imagine they simply caught the first available train to London - ie the one that left at 7:25. Like I've said before I think they are likely to have got the idea of where to detonate the bombs off the Panorama programme the year before - and perhaps on the trains from the previous years Madrid bombings (although that didn't involve suicide bombers - just bombs left on trains).

 

I'm not aware that Power's training exercise specified specific trains - in fact I think they assumed at tube stations (one upstairs in the entrance hall) rather than suicide bombers on trains.

[vResistance 10]

Like most people I would imagine they simply caught the first available train to London - ie the one that left at 7:25. Like I've said before I think they are likely to have got the idea of where to detonate the bombs off the Panorama programme the year before - and perhaps on the trains from the previous years Madrid bombings (although that didn't involve suicide bombers - just bombs left on trains).

 

I'm not aware that Power's training exercise specified specific trains - in fact I think they assumed at tube stations (one upstairs in the entrance hall) rather than suicide bombers on trains.

 

I thought it was me that suggested they may have copied the panorama programme (if not just a coincidence,or an inside job)

 

Peter Power was on that programme too. maybe the bombers hired him as well eh ? (or just a coincidence)