The Total Surveillance State

[evildrneil 14]

I'm very strongly against ID cards - the 'well if you have nothing to hide' argument seems to me to be a bit weak. No I don't have anything to hide, but at the same time I have no wish to be numbered, filed, stored, analysed, sold, numbered or hacked. The governments is suggesting putting a phenominal amount of information on the cards (most of which are of only dubious use for identifying people) and given this governments frankly appalling record when it comes to computer systems does anyone really trust that this data will be stored accurately and safely?

[scottf 21]

Originally posted by evildrneil

I have no wish to be numbered, filed, stored, analysed, sold, numbered or hacked.

 

You already are though? whats the differance in carrying one more piece of plastic if it helps beat crime and other anti-social behavior?

[Cyclone 10]

Originally posted by Phanerothyme

what information would we volunteer to our government.

 

Would we accept our movements, itineraries, diaries, emails, cash and card purchases, web browsing habits, sexual proclivities etc being stored on a central Identification register?

 

If not, why not? After all, if we have nothing to hide, and it helps fight crime....

 

I presume that's said tongue firmly in cheek?

 

Part of the problem is that the government is made up of people, and you ultimately have the question of who is watching the watchers. Another part is that the government is notoriously unreliable and fragmented. Why should it be possible for someone from your local council (whatever department) to find out some of these things? The answer is that it shouldn't, but it almost certainly would be.

And of course why should we be so trusting, just because the government waves the terrorist flag you all assume that somehow these measures would actually be of any use, I fail to see how being able to prove who I am (as if I couldn't do that now) would stop a terrorist from blowing something up.

Or given that most terrorists are a) unknown and b) not British nationals how an id card system or any amount of surveillance would actually impede them at all.

[Cyclone 10]

Originally posted by scottf

You already are though? whats the differance in carrying one more piece of plastic if it helps beat crime and other anti-social behavior?

 

how exactly will it do that? when you're mugged will you demand to see the id of the mugger? If someone burgles your house will they swipe it in your door reader?

[march 10]

I agree with the reasons they state for having ID cards but can't see how ID cards will actually achieve ithem. In an ideal world everyone would be uniquely identifiable and could be traced and located at any time. This genuinely would help with crime at all levels. This is unachievable so there is little point making unrealistic claims about what ID cards could achieve.

[evildrneil 14]

Originally posted by scottf

You already are though?

 

To a degree yes - but that doesn't mean I have to like it or to accept any further errosion of my almost negligable privacy

 

whats the differance in carrying one more piece of plastic if it helps beat crime and other anti-social behavior?

 

Now theres a very important if - just how exactly would an ID card beat crime, terrorism, or any other anti-social behaviour? Once you work out that it won't be of any use for that you have to ask yourself just why are they being pushed so hard?

 

Also its not the card you should worry about but the database of biometric data that the governement will have on you and what that database will be linked to - criminal records? DVLA? medical records? census records? book and video library loans? and what happens when someone has the bright idea to mine all that data...

[Cols 10]

Germany and Spain have ID cards. No crime or terrorism in those countries, is there ?

[Phanerothyme 12]

Originally posted by Cyclone

I presume that's said tongue firmly in cheek?

 

Part of the problem is that the government is made up of people, and you ultimately have the question of who is watching the watchers. Another part is that the government is notoriously unreliable and fragmented. Why should it be possible for someone from your local council (whatever department) to find out some of these things? The answer is that it shouldn't, but it almost certainly would be.

And of course why should we be so trusting, just because the government waves the terrorist flag you all assume that somehow these measures would actually be of any use, I fail to see how being able to prove who I am (as if I couldn't do that now) would stop a terrorist from blowing something up.

Or given that most terrorists are a) unknown and b) not British nationals how an id card system or any amount of surveillance would actually impede them at all.

 

Well yes of course, it was tongue in cheek, but I was asking myself this question today - precisely what information would I be happy for the state to collect and collate about me - and what could be deduced from this information.

 

In the 60s the US intelligence services collectively realised that a lot of the secrets they had were not secrets - because early information mining techniques were starting to reveal "hidden truths" in seemingly unrelated data.

 

Whether we have ID cards or not, it is clear that the state, in addition to institutions and companies, are gathering vast quantities of personal data, and are constantly finding new and interesting ways of looking at the same data.

 

What will happen, I believe, is that if the trend continues unabated, and with the help pf a few more data sharing bills ( currently sharing subjects' personal data between civil departments contravenes the DPA), more information about us than we know ourselves will be available to anyone with the privileges to access the information.

 

The sheer possibilities thrown up by this kind of mass analysis are mindboggling.

 

Convicted criminals could have their aggregated information analysed and compared against statistical information from the whole database, and I'm certain clear indicators of criminal intent would arise from the analysis.

 

These indicators could then be used to identify other citizens who are almost certainly pursuing a life of crime, and interventions could be made.

 

Laws could be made with a realistic idea of how many people will be in breach of them at the moment they are enacted. And give us their names and addresses and current locations.

 

 

So what I'm asking is, are ID cards the thin end of the wedge, or is my near future scenario too outlandish for words? (false dichotomy I know, but indulge me?)

 

Eutopia/Dystopia? Do we get to decide?

[foo_fighter 10]

Originally posted by Cols

Germany and Spain have ID cards. No crime or terrorism in those countries, is there ?

Similarly, are you trying to say that civil-liberties are significantly more eroded in those countries then?

 

[evildrneil 14]

Originally posted by Phanerothyme So what I'm asking is, are ID cards the thin end of the wedge, or is my near future scenario too outlandish for words? (false dichotomy I know, but indulge me?)

 

Your near future scenario is far too possible to think about without shuddering! I spend a reasonable amount of my time doing data mining and the information and predictions it throws up can be both accurate and terrifyingly plausable but not actaully correct...

 

Eutopia/Dystopia? Do we get to decide?

 

<bitter sarcasm>Of course we do - once every 5 years</bitter sarcasm>

[Cyclone 10]

Laws could be made with a realistic idea of how many people will be in breach of them at the moment they are enacted. And give us their names and addresses and current locations.

 

better still they could estimate the exact amount of revenue that would be generated for any given fine and just debit it straight from your account.

 

Budget shortfall, quick outlaw something and slap a £30 fine on it.

[Phanerothyme 12]

Well, if DNA sequence information is kept as a part of this database, it would provide an unparalleled opportunity to correlate genetics with behaviour.

 

When the last government department is outsourced we will no longer have control over who has access to this information and what use will be made of it.

 

In a universe just next door

"May I see your ID card sir"

"Certainly officer"

"Thank you" <terminal beeps> "Right Mr Witless Hippy, you are under arrest on suspicion of future possesion of a controlled substance."

"eh?"

"There is a 98% probability that you are on your way to purchase illegal pure tobacco cigarettes from an illicit source. You have a £50 note in your pocket, you purchased a box of matches this afternoon,"

 

"um, no I'm having a dinner party, candles , you see, er"

 

"...and deposited money in a chewing gum dispenser. Your DNA profile reveals a dopamine metabolitic deficiency that renders you prone to addictive behaviour, your pulse is raised and your skin conductivity is steadily rising mr Hippy, need I go on?"

 

"it's a fair cop"

 

"I am arresting you for conspiracy to deal in controlled substances mr hippy, do you have anything to say before I pass sentence?"

 

{bzzzt} [thud]